Discussion with ‘Me’


I’ve moved our discussions to a separate page so that I can feel free to share my thoughts without worrying about taking up space in the comments section. This will still be available for all to see.

For those of you following along please see the IFB and KJV Deception pages to get background on how this discussion started.

Updated: October 9, 2011 — 8:45 pm

26 Comments

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  1. In the epistles, Paul did not tell us to go sinning after we confessed our sin. There is supposed to be a change afterwards. Does the change come from our efforts? The change comes from the Holy Spirit of God living inside us and the desire to repent and correct the sin how many times it takes. I know what the preaching says in respect to taking notes. I also know what is often implied and I do feel, like others who posted on this site, that they forget that the Holy Spirit is the one who guides, comforts, and convicts and the emphasis becomes too much on the individual and the group. It’s supposed to be on the Bible. The church is supposed to encourage and help and correct. I mean correct in a way that uplisfts the Christian not destroy the individual and scare one away from the congregation or condemn one in front of a group. Discipline is supposed to be done in a spirit of meekness and with privacy with public reprimand as a last course, not the first course. Our leaders in church are supposed to answer to a higher calling and live a life without blemish. If they act in a way which destroys the credibility and ministry of the church, they are supposed to be disciplined.

    MissPants, choral participation and even music lessons with instruments have a great value. Also one remembers some of the great lyrics of hymns. I do watch musical and theatrical presentations in the arts. I have gone to art museums. I think t his teaches team work and discipline just like sports. I love dance. However, many people do not make a professional living in the arts. It’s very competitive. WE know what is required from the employment office and our employers as well. Many people are required to work for a living to make ends meet. I do think there needs to be a standard in education; however, I find myself perplexed cause I feel that education has been too politicalisized and that I feel the emphasis has strayed away from the basics in respect to reading and writing and math and perhaps even science. I believe that God gives people different gifts. I think some churches only emphasize certain gifts or occupations at the exclusion of others forgetting that Jesus called people of various occupations and trades both blue collar and what we would consider white collar today. Those words weren’t used back then. It’s also true in the church. Those who don’t fall into the few gifts they emphasize often are pushed aside. I also think there needs to be more preparation when people go outside the United States for travel and missionary work, at least in foreign languages and even wilderness survival skills and knowledge about the culture. Our laws stop outside US borders. I have mentioned these opinions on other posts. I do not want to label all churches and group them together. However, I do recognize that a problem exist and do feel that the problem needs to be addressed and corrected where it exists. Sometimes I feel like the center of a tightrope in a tug-of-war that’s about to fray. I also realize in our economy that many people have to work just to make ends meet. I am delighted when a jperson can get the ideal job in church administration or in the ministry. But there are many who are employed in the secular world too.

  2. Leanna,

    Alot of good stuff here, and it spurred me to get out my bible and look up some of the passages you quoted.

    So tell me, I know that God looks at me and sees the blood of Jesus. I also know that in this body of flesh that I now possess 2 natures. So what do you suggest when we fail our Lord occasionally? I’m talking about big, hairy, ugly sin? I understand those sins are covered by the blood. Don’t you cry out for forgiveness?

  3. Thank you, thank you, for having the guts to publish this when almost all of Christianity today teach you can lose fellowship with God after becoming born again. I, also, see this teaching as being very deceptive.

    Never in the Bible does it state the wages of sin is being out of fellowship with God. The wages of sin is death. It always has been and always will be. NEVER in the Bible does it say sin changed from death to being out of fellowship.

    Never in the Bible does it say we can be forgiven of sin by simply asking God to forgive us. This attitude bypasses the truth that sin equals death and replaces the truth with sin now being out of fellowship. Our problem is not that we have sinned in actions but that we are dead in sin. Our death in sin did not happen because we personally sinned. It happened because Adam sinned and died spiritually and all who are born after Adam are born spiritually dead, out of fellowship with God.

    In Genesis 1:27 it states Adam was created after the image of God. In Genesis 5:3 it states Adam became a father of a son after his own likeness in his (Adams) own image. Something happened between these two passages. Adam sinned and died spiritually to fellowship with God. Adam, alone, was created after the image of God but that image was destroyed by sin (wages of sin is death) and all after Adam are born in that fallen image of Adam.

    This is the reason Jesus Christ had to be born of a virgin by the power of the Holy Spirit. Adam, being dead in sin could not pass spiritual life to his descendants. The same way we cannot pass on to our children what we do not have, either genetically nor physically. If Jesus were to be born of a human father He would have been born spiritually dead, just like the rest of us, and would never have qualified to be the Lamb of God who takes away sin. (Rom 5:12 KJV) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    We are born so dead in sin that God tells us in Romans(Rom 3:10,11) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

    It is not that sin takes us out of fellowship with God. Sin killed us to the extent that we are born dead in sin. When Adam sinned it broke fellowship with God for everyone born after him. It is not ‘our’ sins that break fellowship. To believe that all we have to do to restore fellowship with God is to ask Him to forgive us means that we do not understand the devastating consequences of sin and devalues the true definition of the wages of sin being death. The core of this erroneous teaching on fellowship with God is what creates shallow Christianity by making one believe fellowship with God is based upon their asking for forgiveness rather than the need to be born again.

    The other side of the coin is that this teaching devalues the crucifixion of Christ for sin. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. But this teaching tells us we can be forgiven by simply asking God to forgive us rather than forgiveness coming through the shedding of Christ’s blood on the cross. Forgiveness and fellowship with God is not based upon us asking, it is based upon the crucifixion of Christ.

    When Adam sinned it brought death and severed his fellowship with God. Christ came as the perfect sacrifice and dealt with sin on the cross but He didn’t stay on the cross. He was also resurrected to new life. He died for sin and is in continual fellowship with God in His resurrected life. When one is born again he is taken out of Adam (death in Adam equals loss of fellowship with God) and placed in Christ and given the eternal spiritual life of Christ (life in Christ equals fellowship with God). This life is eternal and not dependent upon our works or anything we do, it is dependent upon Christ and Christ alone. The same way our death from sin was not a result of our sin but the sin of Adam.

    In Adam we are dead in sin. In Christ through being born again we are given His life of eternal fellowship with God. Nothing can break that fellowship because we are “in” Christ and Christ is in perfect fellowship with God. Scripture even states that the born again one is hidden in Christ who is sitting at the right hand of God. (Col 3:3 KJV) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

    (Rom 8:32 KJV) He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

    Does the sin of a believer break fellowship with God? Not according to scripture because Christ already shed His blood and died for those sins and He is our High Priest who intercedes for us by His very presence of sitting at the right hand of God. When a believer sins Christ is there proving He died for those sins and has given them resurrection life which is eternal. Eternal means eternal!

    This whole teaching of sin breaking fellowship with God is based upon ONE verse in scripture – 1 John 1:9. This teaching is relatively a new teaching. The early church did not teach this. The reason this has become a major teaching is that they do not take into consideration the original congregation to whom this was written and assume it was written to believers. Hebrews and 1 John are the only epistles written without a salutation stating it was to believers.

    Gnosticism was prevalent in the early church as it is today and this was written to a congregation filled with the belief of Gnosticism. The whole first chapter is a defense of the truth of Jesus Christ. Gnostics believed Jesus did not come in the flesh and sin was an illusion. They did not believe they were dead in sin and instead believed they had no sin and did not sin. They believed it was special knowledge (gnosis) which saved them and not the death of God in the flesh, Jesus Christ. 1 John 1:9 is a salvation passage and not a passage to those who already are born again. It was a passage that directly contradicted the Gnostic belief. Paul and John both battled Gnosticism in their writings.

    The only thing that keeps us out of fellowship with God is unbelief. The only sin we can commit today which is against God is unbelief. If we believe in the final, complete, sacrifice for sin done by Jesus Christ on the cross and have received His resurrection life which is eternal we HAVE fellowship with Him.

    The sin of the world is unbelief.
    (John 16:7 KJV) Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

    (John 8:36 KJV) If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

    There may be times we feel we are out of fellowship with God but those are only feeling, emotions, which often lie to us. Our faith is not in what is seen or felt but in Jesus Christ and His Word. If you are born again by the resurrected life of Christ you will never be out of fellowship with God, ever again, for there is NO condemnation for those in Christ (Rom. 8:1) Believe this and be free for the truth will set you free.

  4. Steve – consider it a blessing that the IFBers show up here to prove all of your points for you. The object lesson is priceless.

  5. If you look at my other comment(on moderation and with how IFB is-I do not blame you for moderating). Saw a video clip here and fairly goes with the type of teaching I had to be taught by the Lord(using others and answering prayer to teach me).

  6. We go to a IFB church, and thank God it’s not like all the others! Our Pastor is more concerned about a person’s walk with God than other minor silly things. There is one thing that burns my britches- the whole odd standards for women!! I can understand and do agree that we should be modest- but no pants? Come on! I refuse to stop wearing my pants because some man made up a doctrine. And if that is not bad enough, the substitute for pants in the IFB world are the ugliest most un flattering coulottes! They make even the cute girls look like frumpy old ladies!

    And you are correct about the IFB churches not trianing girls to be anything but wife and mom, and the only reason a female would go to an IFB college is to find her husband, because they don’t even offer classes to girls that are of any value! Where is any woman going to get a job with a major in choral music? Duh.

  7. Right. How many times did I ask him to pick out something he thought was wrong and make an argument about it? About half a dozen yet he continued to do nothing but bicker and whine. It’s so frustrating to have people come here and attack me and the site. All he had to do was pick something, present an argument to support his side and stick to it. I would have discussed it ad nauseum if he wanted to but he never did. How disappointing.

  8. This interchange was absolutely ridiculous. “ME” thinks he is debating, but has yet to make a single logical, rational point. He cannot accept any of your answers and keeps changing his position and deflecting the arguments rather than making a sensible point and backing it up with reasoning and evidence (Scriptural or otherwise). He just keeps the argument going in circles and keeps bringing up the same issues you have already answered, then he starts the deflection tactic to other things again. I agree that you nailed him on the IP thing and his defense of that sounds pretty weak along with how he just fades away here at the end of the discussion. If he truly does have all three jobs he stated, as pastor, teacher, and full time at a call center employer, I would say that he needs to find out what his true calling really is. If the church he pastors is so small it cannot support him as its pastor, then I wonder how it got started? Usually those situations are indicative of a recent church split, the leader of which decides to “pastor” the dissatisfied splinter group after they have broken away from another church. That is one of the major things that bothers me about the IFB is they are so busy fighting–discord and disunity are hallmarks. If they have not got a feud going with outside issues then they are busy fighting amongst themselves–they cannot seem to get along with anybody who does not agree with them.

  9. We are slammed today with calls. Unable to really comment today and I am off tomorrow. I will shoot for Wednesday.

  10. Understood. I would feel the same way. I think you are I are a lot more alike then we realize.

  11. Since I only have internet at work and won’t be able to debate over the weekend, lets wait till Monday and we will start then otherwise it will drive me crazy.

  12. When you posted your message I didn’t realize that you were trying to engage me in a formal debate. You just posted your message and the first thing I saw was an attack so that’s what I perceived it as and went on the defensive. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Since I didn’t know it was a formal debate then I’m afraid I’m can justify not seeing clearly that it wasn’t an attack.

    You keep saying that we could never have a debate, but you haven’t tried it yet. I think we could have a healthy debate and I wish you would give it a try. Why don’t we start over and you can pick any topic you want to debate. Pick something and give your opening statement. I’ll follow with my opening statement and we can go from there. Now that I know you want to debate rather than just attack my site you may be surprised at how civil I can be.

    Just an FYI, I have training in logic and reasoning and am an avid debater. When you are ready to pick something to debate, other than me, let me know. I’ll be waiting.

  13. “The very first comment you posted on the IFB Commonalities page was an attack. You said: “Here is a major problem with what you are saying on the entire website. You call the IFB a denomination. IFB itself is not a denomination.” Then you unfairly challenged my use of the word legalism and stated: “I hate it when people use that term in an improper way.””

    Ok an attack is when you say someone is dumb, a liar, or a heretic. If you have ever watched or been to a debate, you would clearly see that what I said is not an attack. It is common in a debate. I am very glad that you posted this though. It definitely proves that we could never debate b/c in a debate you have to people arguing two completely different points of view on a topic. If I try and do that, you call that an attack so it would never work.

  14. Yes, I invited you back, but like I said “I didn’t think you were going to be replying”.

    The very first comment you posted on the IFB Commonalities page was an attack. You said: “Here is a major problem with what you are saying on the entire website. You call the IFB a denomination. IFB itself is not a denomination.” Then you unfairly challenged my use of the word legalism and stated: “I hate it when people use that term in an improper way.”

    The IFB churches I’ve experienced have been in the eastern side of the US, both North East region as well as South East region. I’ve also been to one in the North Central region of the US.

    When you are ready to pick something to discuss, other than me, let me know. I’ll be waiting.

  15. “Ooops, I thought you were “done with me”. “

    You invited me back to read and reply. I accepted your offer especially when your post involved slandering me.

    “You haven’t started debating with me so I’m not sure how you could stop. “

    Ok I don’t see what I was doing then. The only reason you can say that we haven’t had a debate, as long as we are sticking by actual definitions and not our personal ones, is b/c when I debate a point in your article you don’t respond to the point you choose to accuse me of either lying, attacking you, or giving the same arguments you have always heard. So the only thing hindering our debate has been you not staying on point.

    “I promise I will be nice. I love a good debate, but I don’t like being attacked.”

    I would love to see you being nice. You have been rude the entire time. (How many times have you called me a liar?) That way we could have a debate. You were never attacked. Again I ask for proof of this. I would like to know what you have considered as my attacking you.

    Any further comment from me will depend upon your posts. If you continue call my character into question, I will respond to that, but I don’t think you and I could ever debate on this type of platform b/c you are choosing to take anything I say as a personal attack when none has ever been given. Also I can’t not debate someone who will continually call me a liar. It take real ego to continually call someone a liar b/c they don’t agree with you. The reason I say this is b/c it would have to have its foundation in the fact that you are the only one that is being logical and incapable of being wrong. Anyway back to point, the problem with debating with you on this site is that you are trying to debate and moderate the debate at the same time which means the rules get made up as they go and as you get upset with me and my viewpoint.

    I would like just one question answered to satisfy my curiosity. As I have said depending upon the region that you are in you could have dealt with a certain group of the IFB movement that is nowhere near mainstream. The only conlcusion that I can come up with is that you are in a much different area than I or even other IFB church members I have met. My question is: What part of the US are you in? I don’t need a state or town, just region.

  16. Ooops, I thought you were “done with me”. I was giving my concluding arguments and thoughts and, yes, making assumptions because I didn’t think you were going to be replying.

    You haven’t started debating with me so I’m not sure how you could stop. Like I said, though, if you would like to pick a topic and have a discussion then feel free. I promise I will be nice. I love a good debate, but I don’t like being attacked.

    Please give me something to consider, I’m all ears (or eyes in this case 🙂 Perhaps then the bickering can stop and the discussion can begin.

  17. Ok. I am not debating the points with you as I said. I am through with that, but I will say this if you are not familiar with a preacher who must work and teaches as well, then during your 25 years as an IFB you must have only been at one church and never visited around much. Many preachers, Pastor a church and teach sunday school/bible institute/college as well as working a full time job b/c their church isn’t large enough to support him. I personally am a preacher, who teaches at a Bible institute, and works full time as well. I never said I pastor. You assumed that or you are trying to twists words b/c you are looking for someway to catch me in a lie. As I have said before. I have no reason to lie to you. When in a debate, it is best to stay with the topics at hand. As far as stealing from my employer, I work in a call center. In between calls it is allowed that we get on the web. Once again this has nothing to do with the debate. Just more slander. I will give you this much, you have a vivid imagination. I would think in the near future, you will be blaming the IFB for such things as global warming and the death of Chris Farley.

    The reason I have stopped debating with you is not b/c as you think I got caught in a lie. I have stopped b/c it is pointless. You will not listen to logic. If I make a point about what you say, you try to make it sound like I am yelling at you or putting you down. I have stopped debating b/c you are incapable of doing so. I have not got a logical response from you as of yet and from the other debates I have read with other people I see that is something you may want to work on. The fact that you make so many blatant errors in what you are generalizing about the IFB makes me think you went to one church in the IFB possibly when you were young. They cramped you style and you have moved through life bitter towards them. Anyone who has been in the IFB movement for over a year knows the different beliefs, standards, worship styles, etc… that encompass a small region. If I could bad mouth my own movement for one second, the biggest problem is the pride that can come from many of the churches b/c they all are very different and they all think they are right. I hope with future people posting on this site, you will take time to read their posts and respond carefully and not try to slander them as you have me.

  18. Yikes!!! Where to start… I think I’ll explain about what’s happening here. This may be obvious but it doesn’t appear that you understand. You came to this site to express your disagreement with it. I’m just defending myself from your attacks (and I use attacks lightly here I don’t mean that you are actually attacking me). The same standard of respect and courtesy doesn’t apply to both of us equally. I have greater flexibility. It’s as if someone came up to me in person and got in my face. I have the responsibility to defend myself, forcefully if need be. The amount of forcefulness you show will determine the amount of defense is needed. You came on pretty strong so I just defended myself and my site.

    Yes, I have a site about the IFB telling my experiences and what I perceive is wrong with the IFB organization as a whole. It’s impossible to NOT generalize since I’m essentially talking about the IFB. The IFB is an organization that abides by the same distinctives and fundamentals of the faith. Churches that call themselves IFB do so because they want to project a certain image for people. If a particular church doesn’t want to be identified as IFB then they need to change their name. I don’t know how to say it more clearly… This site is about my experiences. If it doesn’t apply to you then don’t worry about it.

    Your analogy about the fast talking part of the advertisement doesn’t fit. The fast talking guy usually comes at the end of the advertisement. I state on the home page and up front what my intentions are so that when people start with the home page, which most do, they can use that filter through which to see the site.

    I’ll ask you again, instead of complaining that I’m using generalities why don’t you pick something that you feel is wrong and discuss it? I’m more than happy to entertain specific objections but it seems that all you’ve come here to do is attack me using a general “your wrong” message. Talk about using generalities. Pick something and we can have a discussion about it. If you can present a good argument and evidence that I need to change something then I will re-consider my position. So far all you’ve done is complain.

    Now, let me try and address some of your specific concerns…

    Once again you are saying people like me… You do not know me, you do not know my stances other than I am KJV only and I am IFB. I would probably surprise you as a matter of fact with all you are generalizing about I would definitely surprise you.

    Well then surprise me. I’m all ears. What would be something that would surprise me about you that you think I’m making an unfair generalization about?

    I think you are looking for it in my discussions. From my perspective, you haven’t even considered my viewpoint either. Its your way or the highway.

    Perhaps, but you haven’t given me anything to consider that I haven’t heard a thousand times before. All your giving me is classic IFB thinking which, as you already know, I reject. Give me something to consider. Like I said before, I’m open to other possibilities, unlike the IFB. That’s far from a “my way or the highway” option.

    I have never heard anyone argue that bitterness is ok. I agree that it is normal. I even have told you my experience with it. We are warned in the Bible about any root of bitterness springing up. Healing can only come when people will let go. From the comments I am reading on hear, this seems, from my perspective, to help them latch on tighter.

    It doesn’t surprise me that you haven’t heard anyone argue that bitterness is ok since you are in the IFB and the IFB teaches that bitterness is a sin (ok fine, the IFB churches I was in teach that bitterness is a sin). Bitterness is a human emotion and just like other emotions, bitterness isn’t wrong in and of itself. Emotions can become bad and wrong if left unchecked, which is what the verse you mention (Hebrews 12:15) is talking about.

    If you think that this site helps people latch on tighter to bitterness then I’m afraid that you don’t know much about healing painful emotions. Finding comradery and support if very therapeutic and can help people heal much faster. One might think that you would be happy to find out that this site helps people heal form bitterness rather then resist it. But ultimately, like I said before, this site isn’t about helping people heal from bitterness. It may be a side effect and if so that’s great. If not, at the risk of sounding cynical, I don’t really care. I’m not responsible for people who chose to stay in bitterness. I can’t control whether or not people use this site to “latch on tighter” to bitterness.

    By saying its really not that difficult to figure out, it would seem you calling into question my intellect or a liar one. How am I in bondage please explain what I am being kept from?

    Well, what would you have me say when I have to repeat the obvious? I didn’t mean it in a way that calls your intellect into question. I just mean that it’s obvious to see yet you don’t seem to get it. That’s also what I mean by you are in bondage. You are defending a way to do religion that is harmful and abusive. I feel you are in bondage because you can’t seem to think for yourself. You simply repeat the teachings of the IFB. Well, at least I haven’t read anything from you that doesn’t have IFB written all over it. But again, like I said before, if you have something please feel free to present it.

    Finally, I know where you work because of your IP address. As stated on the Terms of Use page “Personally Identifiable Information (here after “PID”) including, but not limited to name, IP address and email address is collected by this site and used for various purposes…” not the least of which is finding out who is attacking the site so I can defend myself if necessary. This is ultimately why I think you quit the discussion. You got caught in a lie and are embarrassed. I think that you are embarrassed also because you are using company time for personal use. Your holier than thou attitude isn’t so convincing when you are stealing time from your employer for personal use.

    Claiming to be a teacher and a preacher takes a lot of work for a person who works at a secular job as well. I think you are trying to claim to be someone you aren’t. Also, I think that you are trying to appear to be something you aren’t as well. I sincerely doubt that you have done as much research as you claim to have done. No one in their right mind would see the difference between what the IFB teaches and what others teach and willingly chose to enter into the IFB after having done that research. It appears bogus and I don’t believe you – sorry.

  19. How do you know where I work?

  20. “You’ve come to this site to voice your disagreement with it. I’m fine with that just present your argument and I will consider it. I will not entertain personal messages or attacks. If you want to discuss the issues presented on the site then stick to the topic you want to discuss.”

    I would ask the same from you.

    “No site is perfect, but I’m not going to worry about trying to appease everyone since that’s impossible.”

    I wouldn’t expect you too. If you worried about appeasing EVERYONE, you wouldn’t even have the site. LOL. However, the things that you copy and paste to show that you said this is not all IFB church remind me of the fast talking guy that comes on after a car ad on the radio. You spend possibly hundreds of paragraphs railing and accusing the IFB and a couple of sentences letting the reader know that this is not all of them.

    “So what’s wrong with bitterness? People who are abuse often become bitter towards their abuser. That’s a normal response to being taken advantage of. This site isn’t here to help people get over bitterness. That will happen over time with healing. “

    I have never heard anyone argue that bitterness is ok. I agree that it is normal. I even have told you my experience with it. We are warned in the Bible about any root of bitterness springing up. Healing can only come when people will let go. From the comments I am reading on hear, this seems, from my perspective, to help them latch on tighter.

    “You can’t say the same for me because I have “seen it”. I believe you are still blinded by the teachings of the IFB. I can only surmise that you are in the bondage of what the IFB teaches. Just because you don’t feel in bondage doesn’t mean that you aren’t. That’s the subtle abuse of the IFB. I didn’t feel in bondage the entire 25 years I was with the IFB either. That’s why it’s called manipulation and abuse. It’s really not that difficult to figure out.”

    By saying its really not that difficult to figure out, it would seem you calling into question my intellect or a liar one. How am I in bondage please explain what I am being kept from?

  21. “As I’ve already stated, I just recognized that there are no references which indicated to me that the article is biased and based wholly on your beliefs rather than truth.”

    For it to be biased, it would have to be one sided. The author is not KJV only that is the only way that you can claim bias or that is based wholly on my beliefs. This was not my article but a good one from someone who would disagree with me and my KJV only stance.

    “In other words, are you basing your research on your beliefs or your beliefs on your research?”

    Given the fact that I used to believe the way that you did and my beliefs came about from research. I would say I am basing my beliefs on the research I have done. Trust me it was not an easy decision especially since it cost me my friends and church family who gave me the silent treatment. These people would fall into your line of thinking as far as beliefs. And that has been common for me with other people that I have met from your perspective. Trust me when I say that I have been hurt just as much as you. It has nothing to do with a movement. It has to do with individual churches and people.

    “I’m not getting my hopes up because I’ve had discussions with people like you before and it’s difficult for me to think that you will ever objectively consider the opposing point of view.”

    Once again you are saying people like me… You do not know me, you do not know my stances other than I am KJV only and I am IFB. I would probably surprise you as a matter of fact with all you are generalizing about I would definitely surprise you. As far as being objective, as I said I did the reverse that you did. I was moderate and became fundamental. But even with this I am not saying that I never question myself and think “well, am I wrong?” Only an idiot, regardless of his viewpoint, would never question things.

    “It’s their way or the highway. Black and white thinking is pervasive and I see it in your discussions.”

    I think you are looking for it in my discussions. From my perspective, you haven’t even considered my viewpoint either. Its your way or the highway.

    “Remember, I am now from the outside looking in. I’ve been where you are and I see the dangers of refusing to consider other points of view.”

    Once again that goes both ways.

  22. Ok lets try this again. First I will make a deal with you. I will proofread everything I say so as not to even risk sounding sarcastic or rude(which I haven’t been, but of coursethis is people typing not a face to face discussion, which may be making both of us sound rude.)

    You’ve come to this site to voice your disagreement with it. I’m fine with that just present your argument and I will consider it. I will not entertain personal messages or attacks. If you want to discuss the issues presented on the site then stick to the topic you want to discuss.

    The reason it bothers me is that people reading this site see it as a generalization of the IFB movement…

    I guess that’s the downside of a site like this. People will ultimately take from it what they want. I’m careful to explain that this site is about my experiences. I can’t control how everyone who comes to this site uses the messages contained here in. All I can do is present my experiences and those that relate to it find it helpful and those that don’t either just leave or start and argument with me like you are doing. No site is perfect, but I’m not going to worry about trying to appease everyone since that’s impossible.

    Now you are attacking me. I am a preacher and anything in my movement that I know of and disagree with, I preach against often to the anger of some…

    You are a man of many talents. Preacher, teacher, working at a financial company… How do you do it all? So you have focused on defending the IFB and I’ve focused on exposing what’s wrong with the IFB. I think we’ve established that already.

    I read the responses from the people reading your site. That is all I have to go by. I have been hurt by churches as well and have even been ran off from one b/c we were liberal. And yes the loving liberals can be very harsh as well. I became very bitter towards them and when I read the posts from people on here I see the same bitterness that I have dealt with for years. There is not post that shows any signs of that individual being set free from that bitterness. I am not saying all that are posting are that way but there are some.

    So what’s wrong with bitterness? People who are abuse often become bitter towards their abuser. That’s a normal response to being taken advantage of. This site isn’t here to help people get over bitterness. That will happen over time with healing. This site is to simply expose the abusive spirituality of the IFB.

    You don’t know that fruit this site is producing. I don’t even know what fruit this site is producing. I can only hope that it’s the fruit of helping people break free from this oppressive denomination. I find it ironic that you call us liberals. That’s funny to me as if anyone who isn’t IFB is a liberal. Brings back memories!!!

    “You either can’t see it or you refuse to see it I’m not sure which, but either way I hope that one day you will and that one day you will come to know the freedom in Christ I now enjoy.”

    I could post the same. I enjoy the Christian life. I am free to do anything inside the will of God. What bondage am I in? I have never one time felt that way.

    You can’t say the same for me because I have “seen it”. I believe you are still blinded by the teachings of the IFB. I can only surmise that you are in the bondage of what the IFB teaches. Just because you don’t feel in bondage doesn’t mean that you aren’t. That’s the subtle abuse of the IFB. I didn’t feel in bondage the entire 25 years I was with the IFB either. That’s why it’s called manipulation and abuse. It’s really not that difficult to figure out.

  23. Ok lets try this again. First I will make a deal with you. I will proofread everything I say so as not to even risk sounding sarcastic or rude(which I haven’t been, but of coursethis is people typing not a face to face discussion, which may be making both of us sound rude.)

    “You know, you and the people like you are the exact reason why I left the IFB and why I will never return.”

    Please explain this. I have read your site 3 times now so as not to risk being accused any longer of not reading it, I read your posts as well and respond to things that I feel important to the discussion at hand, and I try to give as logical a response as possible. From the reasons you say you left your IFB church in this site, there aren’t many similarities, though some, between my beliefs and my church’s beliefs and the church you left. If I am accused of something I would just like to know why. I will extend that courtesy and expect it in return.

    “Again, you would have known that if you had actually read the site, which I highly doubt you did.”

    This is beginning to sound like you are calling me a liar and honestly I don’t see the point of lying to you about this. I have been completely honest with you in all of my posts.

    “If this doesn’t apply to you then why does it matter to you so much? Why do you care what I write? You ask me to share with you information and when I do you tell me that you refuse to listen to it. You can’t get more closed minded then that.”

    The reason it bothers me is that people reading this site see it as a generalization of the IFB movement. Coming from that movement you should know better than they that there are many different beliefs within the IFB movement, many beliefs are region oriented and some are held to by few. The posts from people that read your articles don’t just bash a single IFB church, though some do, but they bash the entire movement that I am a part of. Also where did I refuse to listen to your explanation? I asked for it. You responded with a link to a legalist who I do not listen to b/c his doctrine is wrong and has caused many Christians to doubt their salvation b/c they don’t know if they accepted Christ as Lord or not. I am sure you can respect that. I want to hear your explanation of and the alternative of legalistic righteousness.

    “You complain that this site is misleading people yet you refuse to see how the IFB misleads people. This is but one site. The IFB is made up of many churches misleading hundreds of thousands of people each year. You should be ashamed of yourself for reading about how damaging the IFB is to people and then turn a blind eye to it.”

    Now you are attacking me. I am a preacher and anything in my movement that I know of and disagree with, I preach against often to the anger of some.(You know certain people in the IFB and even other movements have a preacher that they love and can’t stand to have someone expose what they are preaching) And even with your response here you point out that the “IFB is made up of many churches misleading hundreds of thousands of people each year.” That makes it sound like you are bashing an entire movement. I think only an idiot would say that there are not churches in the IFB movementthat are doing this as well as every other movement and denomination.

    “By the way, how in the world do you know what the fruit of the site is?!?!? You don’t know what fruit this site produces. You are unbelievable!”

    I read the responses from the people reading your site. That is all I have to go by. I have been hurt by churches as well and have even been ran off from one b/c we were liberal. And yes the loving liberals can be very harsh as well. I became very bitter towards them and when I read the posts from people on here I see the same bitterness that I have dealt with for years. There is not post that shows any signs of that individual being set free from that bitterness. I am not saying all that are posting are that way but there are some.

    “If you want a clear picture why this site exists I challenge you to read the many comments here about others who have had similar experiences as me.”

    Correct this is where I am judging the fruit based upon my own experience with bitterness.

    “The IFB is run amok with scriptural misinterpretations, improper exegesis of scripture, manipulation and abuse. Just because you deny that it happens doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen.”

    Where have I said it doesn’t happen? I have said it is not the mainstream. I am saying that many of the arguments you are basing your theory on I have never heard in my entire time. Also when you say run amok, that definitely points towards me believing that you are generalizing a movement rather than a few in that movement.

    “You either can’t see it or you refuse to see it I’m not sure which, but either way I hope that one day you will and that one day you will come to know the freedom in Christ I now enjoy.”

    I could post the same. I enjoy the Christian life. I am free to do anything inside the will of God. What bondage am I in? I have never one time felt that way.

  24. As I’ve already stated, I just recognized that there are no references which indicated to me that the article is biased and based wholly on your beliefs rather than truth. Just show me where you got your information, that’s all I’m asking. I’m just curious to know if you are looking at both sides or just the side you believe in. In other words, are you basing your research on your beliefs or your beliefs on your research?

    The article you wrote is nothing new to me. I’ve heard that information a thousand times before. When I left the IFB and finally heard the other side of the argument, I decided to do my own research. I’ve based my view about this topic on that research. I’ve looked at both sides and came to a conclusion. I just want people who have been manipulated by the IFB on this issue to have a chance to see the other side of the argument. I only wish you could appreciate that.

    I’m not getting my hopes up because I’ve had discussions with people like you before and it’s difficult for me to think that you will ever objectively consider the opposing point of view. That’s the danger of the IFB (or any religion/denomination with a dogmatic view). It’s their way or the highway. Black and white thinking is pervasive and I see it in your discussions.

    Remember, I am now from the outside looking in. I’ve been where you are and I see the dangers of refusing to consider other points of view.

  25. “I don’t typically allow links like that, but I left it there because its a good example of what I’m trying to communicate. The article on that site lists no references, sources or anything to indicate where they got their information from.”

    Do you have to list references to be telling the truth? What reason do they have to lie? The site clearly said they were not King James only and didn’t recommend it to most people. This site as you admit is biased. You said this is from your dealings with IFB. You are giving references to people that you agree with. KJV Only believers can give just as many references to people with just as many degrees as your references.

    “The only conclusion I have is that you think it’s a good article because you are biased in your view. I hope that you will somehow prove me wrong, but I’m not getting my hopes up.”

    Why wouldn’t you get your hopes up? I would appreciate an explanation on this.

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