Debate with Kenneth Fuquay


Kenneth Fuquay originally posted a comment on the site that was rather derogatory. He wrote:

Hey Steve, I have spent as much time on your site as my stomach can stand. I know from reading several of your responses to pastors trying to reason with you that you simply enjoy arguing. I’m not going to waste my time arguing with you simply because I know you enjoy arguing and you can’t stand being wrong, in fact you refuse to be wrong and it doesn’t matter to you how far out in left field you have to go to refute sound do tribal teaching. I wonder if you realize how wushu washy you are about the garbage you are spreading about the IFB CHURCH! That’s right I said CHURCH! The last time I checked the Church was an institution that Jesus himself ordained when he told Peter that upon this rock (Peter) will I build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. You know, my Bible teaches that the only person who attacks the Church of God is Satan. I really don’t understand what your problem is and I really don’t understand why if you were so unhappy in the IFB why you waited until you were 25 years old to leave? I really doubt they locked you in and held you hostage so I’m guessing (based on your arrogant unsubmissive attitude you portray throughout your writings) that you were perfectly happy with the Church you were attending until something caused you to blow a gasket. I’m guessing that you were blatantly sinning and the Pastor or other member of the Church called you out on it and instead of doing what the Bible says for you to do which is to repent, not to man but God( were Baptist not Catholic). My other guess is that here you are, 25 all grown up and someone in the Church suggested to you that maybe it’s time for you to start serving the Lord (He’s still waiting by the way) and you didn’t want to deal with the acountability and responsibility of being a leader in the Church. By the way hiding yourself behind the mask of this website does not keep you hidden from God. You will have to answer for every idle word you spew out in anger about Gods Church on this website. I do want to suggest to you that maybe you wouldn’t seem so ignorant if maybe you tried doing a little homework about the Bible and almighty God’s Church before you start ranting about them. I called you wishy washy earlier based on a couple of topics I picked out from your rants. Number one, you claim that the KJV is full of errors and it’s just a copy of a copy of a copy. That part, as much as I hate to admit it I agree with based on the fact that we no longer have the original transcripts. You even said this yourself but later on in your rant you claim that the modern versions are more accurate because they follow the original manuscripts more closely than the KJV. Hello! Didn’t you just finish saying that we no longer have the original transcripts? So how in the world do you or anybody know if these modern translations are closer to the “original” transcripts or not? Another point you tried to make about us KJVonlyist is that we claim that the KJV is more accurate because it’s older. How about trying to not put words in our mouths. Although I do believe the KJV to be Gods preserved word to the English speaking people I don’t make this assumption based on it’s age, but you on the other hand do make assumptions that older means better (more accurate) when it comes to the age of which text the modern versions are translated from when you claimed that the modern versions are more accurate because they are translated from earlier manuscripts. Make up your mind! What’s it gunna be olders better or not. Oh yeah and the Obam/Bush comparison was a horrible example of age not meaning better. Obama is the worst president in history. I am getting tired of typing on my phone so I’M going to try to wrap it up. I am just really trying to figure out why you hate the IFB Church so much that you felt the need to create a website totally dedicated to attacking the Church of my Lord and Savior Jeaus Christ by spreading lies and misguided information. Yes the IFB Church is a relatively small organization and are in no way affiliated with one another but in case you didn’t realize it God did promise to preserve himself a people who hold true tomhis laws and statutes which isn’t a bad thing as you try to make it our to be. From reading most of you hate filled message I noticed that your biggest beef with the IFB Church is it’s strictness. Well in case you didn’t notice Jesus was never as relaxed in his teachings as you and your ecumenical buddies want it to be. Jesus was always cut and dry, your either hot or cold there is no middle ground. I don’t think you even realize what the word fundamental means. Let me explain it to you. Fundamental means we stick stricly to the teachings of the Bible. If that means we are viewed as radical then so be it. I would rather God say well done my good and faithful servant than to hear him say what’s the matter with you? Are you retarded? I gave you an instruction book and you took it upon yourself to rewrite it to fit your self. People talk about how crazy fundamental Islamist are and that they are the radicals in their religion but actually they are the ones who are truly living the life that the quaran tells them to the other ones you don’t hear about are the ecumenical ones like you and you followers who choosemto live the watered down versions. Well I’m tired of writing on this phone and it’s getting late anyways so I better stop. I can’t wait to see the brutal way you attack my reffutal because we all know how much you hate to let someone else have the last word, but if you are serious about having a debate the. count me in. I say this because I noticed that you made the remark that you would like to debate one of the Pastors who wrote you. I will only debate you with scripture though and not your personal agenda. oh yeah I forgot you don’t believe the scripture since nobody has a perfect Bible. One last question, if you believe that no Bible is perfect and that fallible man has corrupted the word of God then why don’t we all just burn all of our Bibles since none of us know what is genuine or what was added by fallible man. oh never mind I forgot Almighty Steve will enlighten us all since he is all knowing and perfect and undoubtably more superior to the almighty infallible eternal God who is the same yesterday today and forever who created everything including his own word but is simply way to incompetent to preserve his word to all generations as he promised. Do you really believe that God is mighty and intelligent enough to create all things but is not capable of keeping some ink on paper unchanged for all mankind. Yes I know you are saying to yourself that man did the translating so therefore is is flawed. But don’t you think that All knowing God took measures to keep his own promise to mankind? I am serious about talking to you more
about this so I am going to give you my email and phone number if you would like my mailing address contact memandmI will provide you with that also. Anyways sorry about all the typos as I mention I’m typing on my phone So it’s
kinda hard to do.

sincerely
Kenneth Fuquay
254 433 3438
kennethfuquay@gmail.com. Hope To hear from you soon

Thinking that Kenneth was here to simply berate and perpetuate the abuse from the IFB, I didn’t take his comment too seriously. So I replied with:

I just like to let comments like this speak for itself. The most interesting thing about this post is at the beginning Kenneth states: “I’m not going to waste my time arguing with you…” then at the end states: “I’m serious about talking to you more about this…”

Kenneth is your typical blog troll. Not worth wasting time on a reply. I think it’s funny actually, and quite sad because he really believes what he is saying. It’s a good example of how confused someone can get with the IFB.

Steve

I was surprised later when Kenneth posted three more comments and I received the following email from Kenneth:

Hey Steve I have an idea that I want run by you and see what you think. I was wondering if you would be interested in not debating me but interviewing me on my Fundamental Baptist beliefs? I was thinking that you could ask me every tough question you can think of and I promise to answer your questions with percent honesty. The reason I want to do this is to answer questions with my own words and let your readers make a decision on what they want to believe based on information from both sides of the argument. I think that after doing this your readers would be better prepared to make an informed decision as to what they believe about the IFB. Again I want to appogize once again to you for lashing out at you the way I did in my post yesterday. I had just finished reading a large portion of the material on your site and I was a bit upset when I was writing that and I let my emotions get out of control it remember this is an apology not an acknowledgement that I am wrong. Anyways back to my idea, I was thinking that we could set up an agreeable time and you could encourage your readers to offer questions that they would like answered or complaints that they or you might want to hear how I justify or rebuke these complaints or comments. I think it could be kind of fun and educational for the both of us as well as your readers. The reason I want to do this is because as you know I find a lot of the information on your site to be completely false at least as far as my Church and my beliefs are concerned and I would like the opportunity to explain mine and my Churches view in my own words and the. let your readers make up their own minds. Also it would be a great opportunity for you to show the world just how big of a whacko I am and once again letting your readers see both perspectives and come to their own conclusion. I was thinking that maybe we could do it in an instant message format some how so the readers could view it live and maybe make their own comments during the session. So what do you think? I think it will definently cause a lot of discussion on your site afterwards and really boost intrest in this matter. Please email me with your response. I really hope you are interested in doing this. God bless Kenneth

I replied:

Hey Kenneth,

I appreciate your interest in the site. I like your suggestion, but this is something I do this in my spare time so I don’t have the time for such an endeavor. Besides, I’m afraid that there isn’t as much interest in my site as you seem to think. I don’t think there would be many people interested.

If you want to have a discussion I’ll be more than happy to set up a section on the site for us to do that. If not then feel free to post comments at your leisure. I’ll not engage in discussion in the general comments section though so if you want to have a discussion let me know and I will set it up.

Your most recent comments are pending your decision since they appear to be comments designed to engage me in discussion.

Let me know.

Steve

Kenneth agreed and thus started our discussion. It will begin with his three comments that were moved here to make the discussion easier to follow.

Thanks for your interest.

59 Comments

  1. Due to inactivity this post is now closed to new comments. It will be available to all to read and see. I hope that this “discussion” will help you realize the terrible mind control and minipulation of the IFB.

    When Kenneth was banned for his verbal abuse and refusal to stick to the discussion he tries several times to get the last word in. I had a hard time deciding whether or not to post his messages, but in the end decided that it would be in the best interest of those reading to see what kind of abuse is out there. I would like to end this post by simply sharing Kenneth’s final words. I’ll not respond. I just want his final comments to speak for themselves.

    Kenneth wrote:

    Yeah Steve I figured you were that kind of guy. Just your average everyday bully who gets his feelings hurt when the victim gives him a taste of his own medicine. Readers I wrote that post so that you could all see just exactly what kind of guy Steve really is. If you will notice I didn’t say anything to Steve that he didn’t already say to me first in some sort or fashion. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! He’s just your typical hypocrite who acts like he’s all holy and totally knowledgeable about scripture until someone proves otherwise then he goes on the defensive instead of admitting he is in error. Note: Steve originally agreed with me to a discussion, but once I started throwing facts out there that he couldn’t disprove he got agitated and started verbally abusing me and anyone else who has a different viewpoint than his. Exactly the same as he “claims” happened to him from the IFB. Steve you have been exposed! Give up the fakeness! You may be fooling a few of your closest followers but the rest of us can see right through you. To those of you who have actually been victim of a negligent Church let me tell you that I’m sorry about what happened to you and that this site will not “really” mend the damage. Bickering, moaning and groaning never solves anything and it’s unscriptural. Steve is going to answer to God one day for all the horrible things he’s done with this website and I encourage you to not be apart of it anymore for your own sakes.

    With love
    Kenneth

    P.S Steve while you are at it why don’t you go ahead and shut down this Satanic website. I am sorry for everyone who has been abused by Steve and his false teachings whether you realize it or not.

    kennethfuquay@gmail.com
    Ken

    Kenneth wrote:

    Yeah Steve I figured you were that kind of guy. Just your average everyday bully who gets his feelings hurt when the victim gives him a taste of his own medicine but just to let you know I’ll stop speaking and making statements when God tells me to, not you, I am commanded in scripture to earnestly contend for the faith and the garbage that you and your followers are spewing towards the Church of God is in definite need of correction. Readers I wrote that post so that you could all see just exactly what kind of guy Steve really is. If you will notice I didn’t say anything to Steve that he didn’t already say to me first in some form or fashion (go ahead scroll back through all of our conversations) in fact he was much more abusive than me. Then when I used the exact same rudeness he portrayed towards me he blocks me from making any more post on this site, Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! He’s just your typical hypocrite who acts like he’s all holy and totally knowledgeable about scripture until someone proves otherwise then he goes on the defensive instead of admitting he is in error because he doesn’t want to appear foolish amid his followers here at the Church of Steve. Steve my buddy, you need to worry a whole lot more about looking foolish in front of God than you do these people, your not fooling him. I thought it funny how you tried to claim how I didn’t provide you with adequate rebuttal verses towards your stances. I think of a Bible verse that describes this perfectly, “there is none more blind than he that won’t see”. Note: Steve originally agreed with me to a discussion, but once I started throwing facts out there that he couldn’t disprove he got agitated and started verbally abusing me and anyone else who has a different viewpoint than his. Exactly the same as he “claims” happened to him from the IFB. Steve you have been exposed! Give up the act! You may be fooling a few of your closest followers but the rest of us can see right through you. To those of you who have actually been victim of a negligent Church let me tell you that I’m truly sorry about what happened to you and that this site will hinder your recovery and cause more damage. Steve has started a cult in the name of “Jesus Christ” but you must remember what the Bible teaches about cults and false doctrines they are going to burn up with everything else. Bickering, moaning and groaning never solves anything and it’s unscriptural. Steve is going to answer to God one day for all the horrible things he’s done with this website and I encourage you to not be apart of it anymore for your own sakes.

    With love
    Kenneth

    P. S. Steve, now I’m finished. Have fun now taking everything I wrote out of context and twisting it all around because we all know how much you love doing that.

    Kenneth wrote:

    Greg, I don’t think you our anybody else here is stupid but I do think you are willfully ignorant. And Greg you know darn good and well that I didn’t say anything to Steve that he didn’t in one way or another say to me first. Maybe perhaps maybe if you took a moment and removed your nose from Steves backside you would see this fact. You guys lift him up as if he’s some kind of modern day prophet. I believe even you yourself made fun of the IFB for doing this with their Pastors or I’m sorry the MOG ( man of God). Good bye Greg

  2. Steve – You are exactly right, they take it personally if you disagree with them, why you’re the Anti-Christ, its a shame really.

    Kenneth and I have exchanged emails since his deportation, and he continues to think that he was mistreated terribly here, I have told him for about the 5th time that I really don’t see it. I wonder what he would have thought if you had gone after him like I did with Arv? Of course you handled Arv pretty good yourself, but not nearly as sarcastically as I did, but did my blathering do alot of good for the kingdom? Probably not.

    Kenneth wanted me to post one of his emails on here, and beside not knowing how to, I told him that you had clearly explained the rules to him and that he had violated those rules and must suffer the consequences.

    It’s up to you whether you want to post his comments, I have already given enough suggestions for your site.

    I tried to post a longer post than this covering the same topic, but it didn’t appear to go through, the 2nd one is always shorter. So if you can edit just keep either one and toss the other.

    1. Sorry abou the trouble posting comments. I don’t know what’s happening with that. This is the one that came through.

      You’re welcome to make any suggestions you think would be helpful. I’d like to have you, Bob, Katie and some other “faithful” participators play a bigger role on the site, but I don’t know how to go about doing that or even what that role would be. There really isn’t much to blogging except finding time to write articles and keep track of comments. If you’re interested in writing an article or something let me know. There are still a lot of topics to write about. The IFB is full of problems that need to be addressed. I appreciate your willingness to take time to post comments.

  3. Steve – I think comments have been disabled on conversations with Kenneth, so I suppose this is where these comments should go.

    It occurs to me that you need to have an agreement with all IFB’s that come here and say they want an open and honest dialogue, kinda like a pre-nuptial. As soon as they violate the agreement, which if the past is any indication, is pretty regular, then disable their comments immediately. I’m starting to sound like someone else I know that has all kinds of ideas about how you should run your site.

    You know its funny, because I use to be where the aggravated IFB’s that come here are now. They have sat in their pews for so long, and know that IFB doctrine so well, and have been told and brainwashed that theirs is the only proper view, they simply don’t know how to react to christians who view things differently, so what happens? They lash out like children. You just want to grab them and show them liberty and freedom that they can have and is available to them in Christ.

    I like the new looks of the site, only thing I miss is the little window that shows the latest comments.

    1. That’s a good idea, but it won’t help because since we view things differently than they do, it’s interpreted by them as an automatic attack and they take it personally. IFBers are tied personally with the IFB and its teachings in what could be considered a dependent relationship. I remember feeling the same way as an IFBer if someone would say something contrary to what the IFB taught.

      If you discount the teachings of the IFB then they take it personally. This phenomenon is seen in all the debates I’ve had so far and especially with Arv Edgeworth and Kenneth.

      This is a danger not only with the IFB but all religious organizations, groups, denominations (whatever you want to call them) because it then becomes about following a set of beliefs rather than following the Bible and while they THINK they are following the Bible they aren’t.

      This is what Colossians 2:8 is all about. Kenneth accused me several times of not interpreting scripture correctly, however, from my perspective he was the one misinterpreting scripture. Well, who’s correct? Of course we each think we are the one correct, but lets look at the evidence, let’s reason through it.

      He is interpreting scripture based on what the IFB teaches – the traditional teachings of the IFB. I’m interpreting scripture using logic, reason and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Who has the greater propensity for mistake? According to Colossians 2:8 Kenneth does because he is relying on what the IFB teaches rather than what the Holy Spirit teaches. It’s a difficult concept to grasp but anytime someone is defending a belief because it’s what a particular religious organization teaches I become a bit leery about it.

      We are to test what we are being taught to see if it’s correct or not. I referenced the Bareans in a reply to Kenneth. I’m doing exactly what Paul told us we should do. I don’t even care if I were to be proved wrong as long as someone can show me using scripture. Kenneth didn’t – or wasn’t able to – do that. All he did was get mad when I interpreted the scripture differently than he did.

      I’m making myself vulnerable for that specific reason. It helps me flesh out what the scripture is teaching and what the Bible actually says. And I trust that it helps others as well. I look forward to such debates because it helps me learn. I probably approached this particular discussion with a bit of cynicism because of Kenneth’s original comment (see above). After he realized I actually read the comments here and take notice his entire tone changed- did you notice that? Then it changed back again once he realized that I wasn’t going to be fooled into thinking that his desire for a “debate” was really just a ruse to try and change me.

      After he was banned, Kenneth tried to get 7 more messages through – they are archived currently. I’ve been wrestling with the idea of posting them. Some of them are pretty abusive. I’m still deciding.

      Patricia is working on making changes for us. We have a new twitter account so people interested in twitter can follow us. She has some great ideas. I’ll ask her about the comments widget.

      Thanks

  4. Other than this one there are 53 comments to this debate

    10 of the 53 referenced scripture

    I would have liked more scripture and less “I am right and you are wrong”

    Of the 10 though I do believe Steve presented his case better than Ken.

    That is all.

  5. Hi PastorLynn – So how do you see this dust-up with Kenneth, a fellow IFBer? Do you think Steve, myself or anyone else here mistreated him terribly, as he contends?

    After having some cordial conversations with you, I can’t imagine that any of our correspondences would have devolved into the name-calling that Kenneth resorted to.

    So what do you think?

  6. @Steve.
    Why did you feel the need to treat Kenneth so badly? I read your entire conversation and from what I got out of it is that it’s ok for you to treat him as disrespectfully as you wanted and he was just supposed to sit back and take it. It seemed as if you were just trying to make a fool out of him not have a conversation with him. He asked you some very logical questions and provided you with very accurate scripture references that plainly disproved the claims you were trying to make, but instead of coming back with a scriptural rebuttal you attacked him repeatedly and then claimed that he was the one attacking you. That didn’t seem to fair to me Steve. It was like you were trying to say to him everything you believe is a lie and I don’t care if you have any solid proof to back yourself up I’m not going to hear it. Steve I just stumbled upon this site this evening and hold no bias towards any church. In fact until this evening I kinda thought about church a lot like you. Now, I gotta say I think I’m leaning more towards Ken and his IFB standpoint. He did provide some very convincing evidence against what you and I believe or did believe. I also wanted to know why you got so irate and told Ken that he was no longer welcome to make post here? I didn’t see anything he said towards you or your site that you didn’t say far worse about him or his church. In my opinion Ken was the clear winner of this debate because he was the most open and honest contestant. He made an honest effort to go step by step through his beliefs and the Bible verses that support them. You on the other hand refused or brushed aside questions he asked you as if he didn’t even ask them and focused on calling him a zealous IFB robot. You didn’t make any valid points to the questions you did answer, instead you twisted scripture and tried to explain it in a way that even a child would be asking him/her self, is this guy for real? Steve, I’m no bible scholar but even I noticed that you completely took that portion of scripture he offered you and mutilated it (I think it was one of the Corinthians) you tried to make it say something that it absolutely did not say. Like I said though I “used” to be a lot like you, as far as not believing in the local church movement and all but after reading through all of the material here, I think I’m going to buy myself a good KJV bible tomorrow and Sunday go visit a small IFB church I drive by on my way to work everyday. Surely those people can’t be as hateful and intolerant as you people on this forum, Ken looked like a saint compared to you and some others posting here.
    @Ken
    Thanks Ken for offering the insight you do on this forum. I hope that Steve doesn’t mean what he says about not allowing you to make anymore comments here. you didn’t do anything to him that he didn’t do ten times worse to you. After reading your post I feel like I’ve learned more about the Bible in a couple of hours than I have my entire life, you explain things in a way that really makes sense. I read in one of your earlier post that you said you weren’t a Pastor, but I think you really ought to become one. you’ve clearly done more homework than the hateful people who support this site. Keep up the good fight brother!

    1. Ann wrote:

      …but instead of coming back with a scriptural rebuttal you attacked him…

      You said you read the entire conversation but refused to acknowledge my scriptural rebuttal. So either you are lying and really didn’t read the entire conversation or you don’t know what a rebuttal is. Or perhaps you don’t care and, as Ken, are only interested in the IFB side if the argument. So I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and recommend that you read the conversation again. You may be surprised to see that I actually did give a rebuttal and it was Ken who retaliated with ad hominems and attacks.

    2. Ann,

      I am not sure then if you are an IFB. There are only 3 types of people here: An IFB supporter, a used to be IFB and a not-so-sure IFB something else. Which one are you? I was an IFB. Educated? absolutely in many facets. I led many ministries. I breathe and slept on the scriptures. I dissected it, tested it and brought it in the lab for my future scientist students to absorb, metaphorically speaking.
      What is my opinion in Steve’s thematics? He represents the many.

      Again, do not spend so much time at the debate on their understanding of the scriptures. Look at the living spiritual application of the word of God in their lives. If they are pricked and their hearts cannot tolerate the injustice, the mal-treatment of the poor, the lack of compassion to the poor communities, then you have a real born-again believer who really understood the scriptures.

    3. Ann – I’ll take the bait, you’re really Kenneth’s mom aren’t you? (smiles)

      I’m assuming you are a christian, though you never said you were. I think it’s fine if you believe that Kenneth “won” the debate, what little there was of it, and why was there no more? Glad you asked, because Kenneth became abusive and started attacking Steve and others and name-calling.

      You said that Steve “refused or brushed aside questions” you also said Steve “twisted” scripture. Steve methodically and intelligently went verse by verse and rebutted every point Kenneth made. Now understand, I’m not saying that you have to like or believe Steve’s interpretation of these scripture, but I will tell you that your quotes above are lies, and unless Steve edits these posts sometime in the future, your lies will be here as a testament to all who stop by, of course as Steve in love, pointed out, maybe in your zeal, you failed to actually read the entire dialogue, if that is the case, the readers here, unlike many in the IFB, will graciously be standing by for your apology, and also will accept your apology.

      How about is Ann?

  7. Hi Steve – I was frankly surprised that you agreed to have this dialogue with Kenneth to start with. He came here with that self-righteous fundyism just dripping off of him. I think it was his 2nd post that he semi-convinced me that he wanted a real exchange of ideas, and I was hopeful for just that, but it was not to be, he saw Satan behind every post and being the only “real” christian around for miles he just had to point this out to us. I guess it is so difficult for fundies to deal with other christians who believe differently, and know the bible as well, if not better than them, and who lovingly under grace share the “real” good news of God’s grace with others, and not this condemning, God is mad at you, and you need to to this that and anything else the uneducated pastor tells you to, to make God happy. (Ok Kenneth, not all are uneducated)

    What I’m most ashamed about is that I could have written everything Kenneth wrote and worse ten years ago.

    @ Kenneth – What helped me to come out from among them (fundies) is to find something that doesn’t seem exactly right about the indoctrination, err… teaching, (see that sarcasm Kenneth, its hard for me not to) that you are currently receiving, maybe, just maybe the Holy Spirit (not Ghost, KJV mistake, see above note about sarcasm) Oh btw, the Holy Spirit is not an “it” either, as the KJV mistakenly records four times, but that topic is for another day, anyway perhaps the Holy Spirit is tugging at your heart that something is just not right with the IFB teaching, for me it was tithing, pray and study deeply into that topic and if you find that the MOG (man of God) is wrong about that isssue, then maybe, just maybe he is wrong about other topics as well. Most IFB’s teach tithing, maybe that would be a good one to investigate, no where in scripture is anyone under the new convenant compelled to give a tithe, the tithe was for Jews under the Law, they gave to Levitical Priests products from the land, never money, its very easy to check out.

    I do encourage you in the Lord Kenneth, you obviously have zeal for the Lord, but w/out knowledge (well not alot of the right knowledge) and as Katie said above, I like your passion. The Lord is way bigger than the little God that you have been exposed to in the IFB, I encourage you to get to know the real attributes of the Living God!

    1. @ Greg

      Hi Steve – I was frankly surprised that you agreed to have this dialogue with Kenneth to start with. He came here with that self-righteous fundyism just dripping off of him.

      I guess I’m a glutton for punishment. Actually, it’s a great learning experience. I learn so much in these types of debates. I learn a lot about the Bible and it helps give me reason to study and stay on my toes. Also, it serves as a good reminder of what I came from and it provides a great example for others of the IFB dogma. Their inability to reason and think logically is actually quite amusing. All they know how to do is regurgitate what they’ve learned. I can’t believe that I was like that once.

      I would have kept going with Ken, but he really was becoming abusive. He refused to debate the issues and provide a counter argument. All he could do was attack us and the site.

      I appreciate your encouragement and support. I’m thankful for all of my “followers” in “The Church of Steve”. LOL

  8. Ken wrote:

    I want to make one final post before I go to sleep tonight…

    I’m afraid that it will be your last comment ever, Ken. I told you that I wasn’t going to respond to or tolerate the attacks and ad hominems anymore and that if you didn’t stop, the discussion would be over. It makes me so sad that there is such hatred out there among the IFB (eyes tearing). But it also makes me so glad that I’m not part of that abuse anymore!!!

    It seems as though you can’t defend your position and as a result you resort to attacking and verbal abuse. As a result, I will no longer allow you to verbally abuse me or those who support this site.

    You may think you know the Bible, Ken, but you have a lot to learn about Christian love and acceptance.

    Good bye Ken. I hope that we meet in heaven one day. I know I’ll be there.

    ********************************************************************

    For those of you who would like to comment on what Ken just wrote feel free for the next few days. Then this page will be closed to new comments and will stand to serve as a great example of the IFB abuse.

    Thanks all who have been involved and who have suffered at the hands of Ken for the cause of Christ. Your reward in heaven will reflect your commitment to the truth.

  9. I want to make one final post before I go to sleep tonight and I want to address it to all of Steves followers (visitors). Steve is always talking about how the “local” Church among it’s many fallacies lifts up a man (Pastor) to teach and preach to the flock is wrong, that there should be no man in authority within the Church. it seems kind of funny to me though how everyone of you do the same with Steve, like he’s your spiritual leader, guru, prophet, rescuer and counselor. People are always making comments to me like “well Steve explains it this way” or I thank God for Steve and what he’s doing here” (which is attacking the Church of the living God by the way). Is this not the exact same thing all of you accuse us of doing wrong? I don’t think there is any difference at all except the way we do it is Biical and the way it’s done here is anything but. Maybe you should all talk Steve into Changing the name of this site into “The Church of Steve” where the SVB (Steves version of the Bible) is all we believe and preach. Just a thought.

  10. Steve I’m sorry that you have so much wool over your eyes that you can’t see that Biblical separation and doctrinal beliefs and differences go hand in hand. I want you to answer one question for me. You keep refuting the fact of there being a local Church, saying Paul was simply speaking to the universal body of believers, so when Paul tell us that we should “put them out of our fellowship” “do not even let them in your house” ” turn them over to Satan” and so on and so on how are we supposed to do that if they have no membership to a local Church? I we are all just one gigantic super Church with no authority figures and no one to submit ourselves in authority to then we cannot expel the wicked one from among us because where are we going to expel them to? Back to the Earth? If that was the case then Jesus granted us (sinful man) the authority and power to take away someones salvation which he obviously didn’t. I know I shouldn’t use the word obvious because I have provided you with plenty of “obvious” scripture and you have found a way to twist every bit of it into what I’m going to call from now on “Steve’s Version of the Bible” henceforth the”SVB” . Steve if you are going to twist and manipulate or should I say mutilate scripture every time I offer you a super plain self explanatory verse then what’s the point of this discussion? When and if you make a valid unbiased point on something I will happily agree with it but so far this entire conversation is really bumming me out. I swear if the Bible said “Steve! this is God. and I want you to know that the sky is blue” you would argue with it. I ask again, is this site really to help people or to press on your personal brainwashed agenda of refusing to be wrong? As you have noticed I’m not going to practice meekness anymore in this conversation as I have tried but continued to be talked to like I am an uneducated idiot. I won’t stoop to name calling but from now on I’m going to simply call it like I see it and let it sound like it sounds. Also I’m beginning to wonder about several peoples reading skills on this site. I don’t know how many times I have explained in plain English my stances on certain things that I actually agree with from some of the posters here but still I have rude comments directed at me claiming I’m against it? I dunno, just seems a little bizare to me. Anyways if you would answer the main question I asked a little further up I will try not to overwhelm you with any more questions or comments because I know how hard it must be to try to manipulate scripture on more than one subject at once.

  11. John I would love for you to point out to me where I have done this without taking verses out of context yourself.

  12. Boy, the arrogant and willful ignorance found in many on this site reminds me of a character in the Bible…who could it be?…… oh I remember now it was Satan. You people talk about closed minded and brainwashed…..have you had a good look in the mirror lately. After my original post on this site I have tried to do nothing but bring peace to this site by politely asking for those who are guilty of it to stop spreading lies about Gods Church but some of you are so filled with hate that you can see past your own self righteousness. you pharasees and hypocrites! Wake up and quit persecuting God! The Bible teaches that there is only one UNforgiveable sin and that is the blasphemie of the Holy Spirit and some of you people are dangerously close if not already there. May god have mercy on you. I will be praying.

    1. Kenneth – Let me see, we are:

      1) arrogant
      2) willfully ignorant
      3) satanic
      4) close minded
      5) spreaders of lies
      6) full of hate
      7) self-righteous
      8) pharisees
      9) hypocrites
      10) God persecutors
      11) brainwashed
      12) close to blasphemy

      Listen to me now Kenneth, no one spoke to you like you have spoken to us. Is there a glimmer, I’m just talking about a tiny little sliver of possibility that you could be wrong, think about it, we proclaim the gospel of Jesus here, and love Him with all of our hearts, you should realize by now, based on our posts that we aren’t stupid, so how do rectify our voices, our testimonies with this judgemental vitriol you have spewed in this post?

  13. Context is key…

    I have been in an IFBC my whole life up to about 4 years ago, and I have always noticed how messages are presented with single verses not connected to each other. I always take it upon myself to read the passages before and after the verses presented, and about 85 percent of the time the Bible is talking about something unrelated to the message being taught.

    Pretty similiar to how Ken is presenting his case.

    1. John – You are exactly right! It’s called prooftexting, and the IFB’s are famous for it. I mentioned in one of my posts to Steve commending him for his exegesis of the Hebrews passage that the IFB’s constantly use to keep their “robots” (kinda sorry Kenneth) sitting on the pews, you know “forsake not the assembling of yourselves together” They take that one verse, and preach for hours on it, and they have completely demolished any reasonable explanation of this verse and passage, and instead use it as another battering ram to keep their “sheep” in line. It is pathetic.

      Let me also add that you can study the scriptures, whether its KJV or any other, and you can find no where the practice of silly men mounting “raised platforms” standing behind a “sacred desk” shouting and making a fool of himself for an hour, and compelling people to come to an “old fashioned altar” pray a repeat after me A,B,C prayer, slap on the back now you are saved sermon. Wow Greg tell us what you really think, I believe I just did.

      The things that I just ranted on above are not necessarily wrong, they are traditions mostly, but where do we find them in the scriptures? Btw, I think folks should be invited to “accept” Jesus as Saviour, but believe me, saying insincere prayers because some “orator” has guilted you to walk an aisle is not salvation.

      Dismounts soap box.

      1. Greg,

        I know it could be kind off the subject, but I cannot help to make the comment. The Hebrews don”t forget assembly together is I must say a very common verse they use. However, I have been in many different denominations (Pentecostals, Methodist and others) and they do the same thing, perhaps different verses, but repetitive for whatever they want to stress. NIV, ESV, seriously, what good is it if people cannot understand KJV. My husband is a physicist, an architect and cannot understand KJV.

        Marie.

  14. Katie
    Yeah I realize I am a pretty cut and dry person and sometimes am unaware of the complexities of some issues, but at the same time so is the Bible. I know that some people feel trapped in certain things in this matter “spiritual abuse” of course, but this is one reason I constantly encourage people to read the Bible for themselves too see whether the things they are being taught are true or not. it is the Pastors duty to prepare all members of the Church for ministry but if what he is teaching is false then we ourselves need to be knowledgeable enough about the Bible to see that when and if it happens.
    Now I realized that you either couldn’t or wouldn’t share with me any scripture supporting what is happening with this site. So to give you fair warning so that you won’t feel helplessly trapped by the false teaching taking place on this site I suggest you take a serious look into all the false doctrine a few people are spreading around on this site, deceiving many by their cunning words and craftiness. These people have got so many people fooled into believing that their doctrine ( teachings) are those of the Bible that it’s scary. I promise you that if you will look for yourself without a predetermined notion that you will see that everything being taught here concerning retaliation against Gods Church is a blatant deadly lie. Taking part in all the HATE speech (even though they will never admit that this is what it is) on this site about Gods Church and Gods Word is a dangerous place to be and will carry I’m sure severe consequences even to the believer. Gods “Word” by the way IS JESUS CHRIST. Katie I’m.not insinuating that you don’t read your Bible but I am suggesting that maybe Steve has you fooled by his self proclaimed knowledge of scripture.Because of people preaching his type of false doctrine is why and how there are so many cults in the world today. Please I plead with you to be careful as to what and who you will allow to influence you. This site is very dangerous for the unbeliever as well as the believer.

    1. @ Ken

      Yeah I realize I am a pretty cut and dry person and sometimes am unaware of the complexities of some issues, but at the same time so is the Bible.

      It’s probably important then for you to be “cut and dry” on the same issues as the Bible then don’t you think?

      @ Ken

      Now I realized that you either couldn’t or wouldn’t share with me any scripture supporting what is happening with this site.

      As I already said, Steve has done that.

      @ Ken

      These people have got so many people fooled into believing that their doctrine ( teachings) are those of the Bible that it’s scary.

      I would say the same about the IFB. I think that those are actually Steve’s words? Did you copy them? Be honest now.

      @ Ken

      I promise you that if you will look for yourself without a predetermined notion that you will see that everything being taught here concerning retaliation against Gods Church is a blatant deadly lie.

      You’re trying to convince the wrong person. I was fighting the IFB while you were still in diapers. I have to admit though. I like your passion.

      @ Ken

      Katie I’m.not insinuating that you don’t read your Bible but I am suggesting that maybe Steve has you fooled by his self proclaimed knowledge of scripture.

      I think maybe you are insinuating that very thing.

      I came out of the IFB long before I met Steve or found this site. I’m afraid that you are claiming knowledge about things that you don’t have knowledge about. I would guess that this spills over into your “knowledge” of the Bible too.

  15. @ Ken

    I simply asked Steve and now I ask you why did you wait so long? I know if I was the victim of any of that nonsense first I would try to correct it in a biblical manner and then if that didn’t help I would start looking for another Church immediately!

    For the same reason someone stays in an abusive relationship/marriage for 5, 10, 20 years. 1. The abuse is subtle and it’s not always recognized immediately. 2. the person/organization who is abusive manipulates to convince (brainwash) the person into thinking that they aren’t being abused. 3. The person/organization convinces the person that if they leave the abusive relationship then they will be killed or damned to hell (fear and control). 4. The person being abused is dependent on the abuser for some reason. There are many reasons why a person stays in an abusive relationship. I see it all the time. It’s manipulative and dysfunctional. It’s multifaceted and complex. It’s not as simple as you try to make it out to be.

    @ Ken

    The only problems I currently wonder about Steve is how he comes to the stances he holds to now because I find no where in the Bible that supports these stances, not even in the scripture he provides to me. I’m sorry but he and I just simply to not read scripture the same way…

    Steve is trying to tell you but you don’t seem to be listening. I personally question whether you CAN and believe you are blinded by the IFB teachings. From what I’ve read (and because of a similar situation with me) I think that Steve has come to hold the stances he holds from study of scripture outside the teachings of the IFB. Once free of the IFB teachings you may have a different view of scripture also. But there’s only one way to find out.

    @ Ken

    The bottom line is, if you are or have been abused then try to fix it and if not get out,…

    Well, let’s see, we got out, and Steve is using this site to try and fix it. Hmmmm…

  16. Marie,
    Thank you for your comments. I feel that one thing needs to be put back into context though. I was in no way insinuating that you, Steve or anybody else on this forum never received this abuse you all describ and your right, praise God I have never experienced any of these circumstances. I simply asked Steve and now I ask you why did you wait so long? I know if I was the victim of any of that nonsense first I would try to correct it in a biblical manner and then if that didn’t help I would start looking for another Church immediately! The only problems I currently wonder about Steve is how he comes to the stances he holds to now because I find no where in the Bible that supports these stances, not even in the scripture he provides to me. I’m sorry but he and I just simply to not read scripture the same way but because we don’t then I’m accused of simply being an legalistic IFB robot. I’m like most others who visit this site in defense of the IFB, I realize that yes their are many bad IFB Churches out there just as there are many more other denomination and non denomination churches (simply because the IFB is a relatively small organization by comparison) but just because a particular Church here and there is in error doesn’t give anyone the right to associate me with them in any way. That’s like calling a guy who is driving down the highway guilty of murder just because there happens to be an actual killer driving down the same highway. it’s ridiculous! The bottom line is, if you are or have been abused then try to fix it and if not get out, don’t make it a mission to attack the rest of Gods children just because we call ourselves the same name besides show me in the Bible where it tells us to handle any of the problems described on this site the way the people on this site claim to be trying to handle it. I think if you do this that you will find that the Bible teaches that what is happening on this site is wrong (bickering, moaning and groaning,gossip,false accusations ect.) What has happened to you guys and gals is a spiritual problem, it is not going to be fixed with the sinful fleshes ways.

    1. Ken,
      I am going to respond briefly to each of your concept. We approached the Pastors. We were lied to, asked forgiveness and restoration. Then the other things that were hidden unfolded in front of us. Suddenly we see clearly, so we approached them again.The media helped us to see clearly. Sadly the church is in the middle of scandal. Thank you, media. And BTW like you, we are intelligent people. Well-rounded educated in secular universities who would never put up with none-sense. And we did not. This church? Well, Tina Anderson’s former church…….

      1. Ken,
        Before you leave, examine this. These people are angry. Some lives are ruined, yes by the church. You need to look beyond you and how this offends you. The bottom line is, you are attacking some real victims. Be careful, because this is one major symptom of the IFB. Look at Tina Anderson story, google it, Concord Monitor. Big church, 1,000 members. I will also post a news article from a reporter here in nh.
        Do not get lost in words and arguments, you will notice, you will not be productive. Look at the many injustices in IFB churches, you will find them.look at the victims.

  17. Kenneth F:
    You stated you could not understand what Steve’s problem is. This means you will not understand the many people who left IFB. You refuse to understand simply because you have not experienced the trauma that others did in the hands of these Pastors and other leaders within the organization.
    You stated that Steve waited until he is 25? Well I am 41 and we just left. I was in IFB for 11 years and if your heart is not pierced by my story, then it is because you refuse to see it for what it is.

  18. Kenneth – I believe you misread my comment about sarcasm. I said that I was more sarcastic than Steve, and that you had been at least as sarcastic as Steve, so maybe you misunderstood. I really think all of the sarcasm is very mild, as I have said, I got very sarcastic with Arv Edgesworth, have a look for yourself, but he was very pompous and arrogant himself, so I replied in kind, perhaps not a very good testimony, but I feel it is necessary for truth to prevail. As mild as Steve’s sarcasm is, and I have been hanging around here for nearly a year now, its not worth discussing, were I you, I would let it roll off of me, like water off of a duck’s back and strive to make my points.

    As far as me getting in more comments, as I said, I’ll jump in where appropriate, but I seriously must defer to Steve, when I found this site, I was well on the road to recovery from my spiritually abusive IFB experience, but it was still like finding an oasis in the desert, and I will always be thankful for Steve for having this resting place for abused folks like us, and for a loving God who moved on his heart to provide this great ministry for us.

    And if I must be completely truthful, Steve has thought through more of these things than I have, he has been out of the IFB movement longer and has had time to process his thoughts longer, I defer to him as Peter deferred to Paul as it related to being legalistic with the new gentile believers, trying to put them under “some” law, precisely as IFB’s do to their folks. Just a thought, Jesus saved his harshest criticism for the folks who “knew” the bible the best. (Pharisees)

  19. Hey Greg, I appreciate you clearing up that statement you made but once again I must emphasize that I have not always been in an IFB Church and I know what other teachings are available out there. I am 32 years old and have been a member of the IFB Church for the last five years and have grown in the word of God dramatically in that time. The few years before I became a member of the IFB Church I was just like you guys. I didn’t see the need for denominations, pastors, teachers, deacons or the need for only one Bible in the English language. In fact, before I started using the KJV only I used the CEV (contemporary English version) and I was happy with it. In fact when I started visiting the IFB Church I still used that version. It was only after I started visiting the IFB Church that I started to wonder about why they only used the KJV, so I approached the Pastor one day and asked him ( he did not approach me) about why they did that. He gave me a brief explanation and then provided me with some literature about the subject. After taking this material home and researching it myself I came to my own conclusion that we should only have one version in the English language, and after a considerable amount of more research about the origins and content of several different translations I came to my own conclusion that the KJV was in fact the most accurate preserved word available to me personally. I’m just sick of you guys implying that I am a brainwashed idiot. My Church does not force anything down Anybodies throats. Greg I would also like to ask you what you meant by saying that I have been way more sarcastic than Steve. I admitted that I allowed my emotions to get the best of me in my first post and I appologized for and since then I have kept my cool and not said anything in sarcasm. In fact the only things that I have said that could even remotely suggested as sarcasm is when I explain how I could easily flip the script right back on you guys with some of the accusation you pin on us. Greg I really hope that you would comment more during Steve and I’s discussion. I think that you are a genuine Christian and I really enjoy speaking with you. The truth of the matter is that we all have different views. the Bible only has one. it is important for us to discuss these differences because one of our sides is not teaching the truth and even though we (myself, you, Steve or anyone else on this site) may be a lost cause, to stubborn to give in to another view there may be others who visit this site who have not come to any conclusions just yet. So Greg I urge you to make as many post as you like on this thread. It is not just for me and Steve but for anyone who has a view or belief to share and like I said I do really enjoy speaking with you.
    Hope to talk to you again soon
    Kenneth

  20. Hi Kenneth welcome back! We thought you were gone that is why I went ahead with my response.

    The IFB issue is really you and Steve’s baby, so I will stand by and follow the action quietely, jumping in if and when it seems appropriate.

    There are alot of things I could say in response to this last comment, but the main thing I want to clear up is that I was not insinuating that you were not saved, not at all, in fact, I believe you absolutely are saved, when I speak about finding real true grace and christianity, I was not speaking of your salvation, I was speaking to walking in true freedom and grace and love, not following man-made rules, like “my” experience was in the IFB. That’s all, and please don’t get to excited about my adding to the scriptures, you see that I put my paraphrase in quotations. I love the Word of God with all my heart, because it is in them that I think I have eternal life.

    I am by far, more sarcastic that Steve, a suggestion? As you guys go along don’t be so thin-skinned, my goodness Kenneth come on! Present your points and allow Steve to present his, you certainly have been just as sarcastic as he has, but if you keep on complaining about alittle sarcasm, you take up valuable time that could be used to be making your case.

  21. To Steve and Greg. Perhaps I made the decision to leave a little too early. Of course you both realize that everybody who post anything whether they claim it’s their last or not still come back to see what remarks or comments were made afterwards. Of course when I did this and saw the comments the both of you made I couldn’t resist the urge to try one more time and see if it was possible to post something here Pro- IFB without a hateful uncalled for response.

    To the both of you I do want to say though that if your uncalled for sarcasm and hints of calling me stupid and uneducated don’t stop then this discussion is over. It’s not that I am not a big boy and can’t take it but if you want to have a discussion with me like we agreed then it needs to be stopped. It is not helping your cause at all by calling me a “fundy robot” or “institutionalized droid” or whatever else you guys like to call us. I think if I make a comment or quote scripture that you either disagree with or you think that I am not interpreting correctly then I think a simple “Kenneth I don’t agree with you and this is why” will suffice just fine. I just don’t want to see anymore of “ Kenneth I don’t agree with you and this is just another example of your IFB brainwashing”. So what do you say guys, do you want to try it again?
    If you do then lets get started, if not then please don’t bother reading any further. First I’m going to try to make a response to both of your last post then after that I’ll let the Lord lead as to if I write anymore tonight.

    Steve’s post:

    Author: Steve
    Comment:
    How am I not allowing it to be a fair discussion?

    Ken’s answer:
    By hatefully attacking my credentials by making an uncalled for remark like “brainwashed, IFB robot, institutionalized fundy ect. ect. Like I said in my last post, how do you know that I didn’t already hold my Biblical stances well before I ever set foot in an IFB Church? Just because I hold a stance on something that you don’t agree with doesn’t make me wrong or a trained robot. How do you claim that your interpretation of scripture is correct and mine is flawed?

    Steve:
    You are free to write anything you wish. If you want to have a discussion then let’s have a discussion. If you want it to be just you and I so my “followers” (rolling my eyes) don’t interfere then let me know and we can do that. I’ve already offered that to you.

    Ken’s reply:
    I already welcomed anyone and everyone to take part in our discussion. Yes I did use the term “followers” what would you call them? You are obviously a “Pastor” figure to them. Would you prefer that I call them disciples, students, brethren or what, you tell me. I wasn’t trying to be derogatory by calling them that but they are obviously something to you.

    Steve:
    If not then I bid you ado and a hardy thanks for providing more evidence for what I speak out against on this site.

    Ken’s reply:
    Your welcome, but exactly what evidence did I provide you with? All I recall is politely asking you to perhaps rethink what your mission here is and what you hope to accomplish and to do it in an more appropriate manner that’s not so insulting to those who don’t agree with you.

    Steve:
    I will let your “last post” speak for itself.

    Ken:
    Thank you.

    Steve:
    I will stand above replying to your ad hominem attacks and accusations.

    Ken:
    I didn’t attack you and my statements were not out of line or uncalled for. Steve the way you belittle us IFBers is in no way a Christian attitude I don’t care what bible version you learn your Christian social doctrine from.

    Steve:
    Since you are leaving, I would like to say one final thing though – and this is more for those who have been following the discussion since you probably won’t even read this. You started out by contacting me to get to know me before you started a discussion. Well, you haven’t yet done that. You asked me a bunch of surface questions that have nothing to do with the core of why I have this site. You have no idea what I’ve been through or what my message truly is.

    Ken:
    Yes that’s right. I did ask you a bunch of questions, most of which you refused to answer or waved away claiming they were irrelevant. (I’m not talking about the age question. Not answering that one is understandable) And yes I do have an idea as to what you have gone through, you have made it quite clear throughout this site. On the other hand though, no, I haven’t personally experienced what you claim has happened to you because my Church is Not Guilty of these accusations nor are many thousands of other IFB Churches.

    Steve:
    You ignore the thousands of people who have come here to support this site and share similar stories. You think that somehow YOU KNOW what’s best for me and this site and refuse to consider that maybe, just maybe, I’m acting on direction from the Holy Spirit. How typically arrogant and judgmental.

    Ken:
    I don’t ignore them nor do I even know them. I have welcomed all to interact in our discussion but the fact is that I’m not their Pastor, I didn’t cause them any abuse, nor did my Church and the Doctrine we believe. I never claimed to “KNOW” what’s best for this site but I did suggest you rethink or should I say consider the way you discuss matters with people who are IFB maybe in a more polite tone. As to the question if you are being led by the Holy Spirit or not; I have no idea. All I can say is that I believe what I believe about the Bible and it’s teachings and what I believe doesn’t line up with what you are doing here on this site. Arrogant and judgmental no. Stating that I believe what’s going on here is wrong and unscriptural yes.

    Steve:
    Because of that I perceive you as I perceive others in the IFB and others who have come here to try and change me under the guise of “having a discussion”. I’ve been around the block enough times to recognize IFB dogma when I see it. So well done! You have lived up to what I’ve come to expect from the IFB.

    Ken:
    Steve, what was that about ME making assumptions about you? It’s only a discussion until one side starts name calling and belittling the other, then it’s a fight. There’s no reason for a discussion to turn to the defensive. The IFB is not a dogma as you like to call it. There is plenty of scriptural support to hold up the teachings we teach. I have provided you with plenty of this scriptural support. Whether you agree with it or not, well, that’s between you and God. You shouldn’t call us a dogma because the term could easily be flipped right back on you by me saying “Steve’s website is a dogma because I believe he is trying to teach a doctrine that is scripturally unfounded”.

    Now on to responding to Greg’s post:

    Author: Greg
    Comment:
    Steve – As I read Kenneth’s response, I thought to myself, I don’t remember you calling him names and being abusive, I actually thought it was a good conversation, and was looking fwd to Kenneth’s response. So when I finished his response, I went back and re-read your comments to him, I feel you were to the point and very polite.

    Ken:
    Well Greg let me point out a few spots to you.
    1.”Thanks again for helping support my position” (call it what you want but it’s still sarcasm)

    2. I can’t believe your BLATANT(emphasis mine) misinterpretation of scripture (actually I can believe it unfortunately) How blind the IFB has made you. Blatant? I’m sorry but I would never knowingly misinterpret scripture and for him to make this accusation is very judgmental and uncalled for. The scripture he was referencing I picked because the way I read it supports my beliefs. I’m sorry that you guys don’t agree with me but no one has the right to claim that I am intentionally misusing scripture just to back me up on my stance. If that were the case I could easily accuse you and Steve both of “blatantly misinterpreting scripture” but I choose to instead simply try to make you see it the way I do just the same as you guys do to me. Then he says” how blind the IFB has made you”. Greg, he doesn’t even know me. How can he make this statement? Again just because you guys don’t agree with my stance on scripture doesn’t necessarily make you right or me wrong. You and Steve’s opinions are no more relevant or founded than mine are. Talk about arrogant and judgmental! By the way he goes on to call me this in his next post.

    3.” I have refuted your misinterpretation of scriptures. You haven’t disproved anything. You have only proved that you can robotically regurgitate what the IFB teaches. My response; Steve you haven’t refuted anything you have simply made it clear that you don’t agree with me and you read scripture differently than I do, what a bold statement to say that you refuted it. Again you might as well say that I am stupid and can’t read and that your views are the only ones that matter or are correct. Greg I could have easily replied back to Steve that he has only proven that he can robotically regurgitate what Satan teaches but I didn’t. The thing is, is that no matter what I post here it is automatically assumed that the IFB Church taught me this and I am to scripturally blind to come to my own conclusions about Biblical teachings. FYI I can read, I can logic and I can make up my own mind. This is probably my biggest problem with this website. Everyone here teaches that us IFB people are robots programmed to say and repeat everything they tell us. This is completely not the case.

    4.”How typically arrogant and judgmental”. My response; I am no more arrogant or judgmental than he is. I could say “how arrogant and judgmental everyone of you are on this site because you claim to be correct and everyone else in the world who chooses to follow the Bible the way they think it teaches and attend a local Church”. But again, I choose not to. I believe you are entitled to your own beliefs and I don’t, nor can’t condemn you for them. It is God’s job to handle this whether you are right or wrong.

    5. “Jumbled up mess of a response” My response: Steve I apologized for the way my post appeared. I can’t help it if your server or whatever wouldn’t print it the way I typed it. I didn’t know that it wouldn’t work the way I typed it but the way I typed it was very easy to follow. Why did you feel the need to insult my post even after I apologized and explained?

    Greg:
    I think what happened is that your response was so completely devastating to his IFB dogma that he didn’t know what to do, they are not used to thinking on their feet, or actually having to listen to someone’s opinion other than their own, so he decides to bow out and make up a contrived excuse about you calling him names as a way out. (notice he didn’t/couldn’t refute one of your points?)

    Ken:
    Greg, now here you go with the same arrogant attitude Steve came at me with insinuating that I am basically a mindless drone who couldn’t come up with any comebacks from my robotically programmed hard drive given to me by the IFB. I must say that yes, I can think on my feet and so far none of you on this site have provided me with anything challenging that I (through my interpretation of scripture) can’t refute. You guys act like us IFB members don’t bother or are not allowed to read our Bibles. You guys are not the only ones with the word of God and you guys are definitely not the only people who know how to read, also just because we don’t agree with you doesn’t make us wrong or you right. If you want to take a stance on what you believe the Bible teaches then that’s fine but don’t imply that you are correct and anyone who thinks otherwise is brainwashed. I do believe that this is one of the beefs you guys had with the IFB and now you’re guilty of it yourselves. Finally Greg, what points was I supposed to refute? I didn’t notice anything new that I haven’t already refuted in previous post.

    Greg:
    Btw, I think your explanations of the scripture that were being discussed was awesome, even had me re-thinking a couple of things. All of us come to most any subject with pre-conceived ideas based on what we have experienced or heard or have practiced. Kenneth and IFB’s come to the table with the idea that this is how church is to be done, why? Because that’s what they have been taught, the way they have been raised, and its just the way they do things. They can’t see past that. To them church is a guy standing up in front of them yelling about whatever topic he thinks is appropriate, the giving of so much authority to simple men is a huge problem in the IFB. Oh well I’m preaching to the choir here.

    Ken:
    Greg, I think I have made myself clear that I am not an IFB robot and really don’t see the need of retyping everything I just finished typing but here you go implying once again that you can read my mind and that you know everything about me and the way I was raised. Well Greg the truth is you don’t. How about you take a word of advice from Steve and try to get to know me before you go and make accusations and assumptions about me. Then maybe you will be able to see that I am not programmed to think a certain way or am brainwashed into only believing what I have been taught to believe. You guys act like all of us IFBers are the same and you have made the statement that you can see right through us. Well, the truth is that I could say the exact same thing about you guys. I have been around the block a few times myself and could say that I can see right through the false unscriptural teachings you guys bring to the table, but I don’t. I don’t claim that my scriptural knowledge is superior to yours and you shouldn’t imply that yours is to mine. We simply both take a different stance on what we believe the scripture says and where the scripture even comes from, but until one of us invents a time machine and goes back to the Garden of Eden and records all of history from that point on then neither of us can honestly say we are absolutely correct. So far though this attitude seems to be the only thing I see from you guys. You all imply that your beliefs are the only ones that are true, but you can only make those statements on FAITH just the same as I have to do.

    Greg:
    I do also want to commend you on your handling of the verse on “not forsaking the assembly of yourselves together” I believe it was in the response to Kenneth before this last one. The IFB’s love this verse, and take it out of context constantly.

    Ken:
    Again Greg, you are entitled to your opinion but that does not necessarily make you correct.

    Greg:
    Again they use it to keep their flocks in line and setting on the pews every Sunday, Wednesday and any other time they deem necessary.

    Ken:
    Again Greg, We interpret scripture a certain way that you don’t see. Now explain to me how you are correct and we are misled. You know, Steve made the statement that the Bible does not tell us a certain way to “do church” but at the same it doesn’t Not teach us a certain way to “do church” either. As a matter of fact I don’t see any support for the way you or Steve claim to worship. But do I go and start a website to attack what you are teaching, no.

    Greg:
    Just as you said you and your friend fulfil this everytime ya’ll get together for bible study, the verse just before that says “let us consider how we may spur one another on towards love and good deeds.” That’s alittle different than the way Kenneth and company teach that the MOG (man of God) has to yell at you in the church for 45 minutes, no where does this verse even hint at such a thing!

    Ken:
    Nor does it imply that we shouldn’t. So what makes you more right than me?

    Greg:
    @Kenneth, please re-read Steve’s reasoned response to every point, could it be that your understanding of these scriptures could be wrong? I know its scary for you that this could possibly be, but I promise you, if you find true grace and true christianity you will never go back, Jesus stands waiting for you.

    Ken:
    Greg, I did reread Steve’s response and I will ask you the same question. Could it be that your understanding of these scriptures could be wrong?

    Greg:
    I know its scary for you that this could possibly be, but I promise you, if you find true grace and true christianity you will never go back, Jesus stands waiting for you.

    Ken:
    Greg, I thought that you and I were finally starting to understand each other through our earlier post to one another but this portion of this post really upsets me. First of all, I am a grown man who has a perfectly functional God given brain and can come to my own conclusions about what the Bible teaches just the same as you can but again what in the world makes you think that your brain is superior to mine and how dare you insinuate through your quote “if you find true grace and true Christianity you will never go back” that I am not saved because I don’t believe the same as you and Steve. Brother, I know that Jesus Christ (God in the flesh) came to Earth to live among sinners and be tempted in every way I am but still without sin who was crucified on the cross in my place, buried and rose again on the third day, conquering death and making the blood atonement for my sin. Brother, that is true grace and I in no way deserve it and I follow him the best I can force my flesh to follow and that is true Christianity. Just because I choose to serve and worship him in the way that I see the Bible teaches gives you absolutely no right to make this judgment about me. Only God can do that. Are you now implying that you are God? Brother I’m a big boy and I don’t wear my feelings on my sleeve, but I think that you owe me an apology for that statement. Now For your last statement “Jesus stands waiting for you” oh really, you can see him? Hmm. Gee, I wonder who this guy is that I have been praying to for the last twenty five years, who actually listens to me, answers me, gives me understanding, and comforts me when I need it is? Oh I guess he must just be the “god” of the KJV Bible. Maybe if I start thinking the same way as you then I can meet the “real God” and plead with him to forgive me for following that KJV “god” all this time. I don’t ever want to hear you or anyone else on this site call me “judgmental” because Brother, you can’t get anymore judgmental than what you just said to me.

    Greg:
    “Come out from among them (IFB’s) and be ye seperate”

    Ken:
    Now talk about twisting scripture and taking out of context AND adding to the word of God.

    Greg:
    Now that’s seperation that I can appreciate.

    Ken:
    Well Greg, to bad for you that that even yourself had to rewrite scripture to come up with a verse that you can agree with.

    Now I am going to bring up one topic from an earlier post before I close. I used the Verses of 1 Corinthians Chapter 5 verses 1-12. They read as follows from the NIV. Steve reminded me that he did not use the NIV but I only chose this version because it is the most popular in our modern time. Steve claimed that this verse was talking about separating ourselves from unbelievers and that we should be accepting of our own (the believers) differences and keep fellowship with one another. I want Steve and anyone else who would to explain to me how in the world you get his understanding from this verse? I will break it up and explain my point of view so everyone can see where I’m coming from.

    NIV:
    1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate:

    Ken said:
    “even pagans do not tolerate” (pagans are unbelievers and Paul is obviously talking to the believers)

    NIV:
    A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this?

    Ken:
    Let’s remember who he’s talking to (the Believers who are in fellowship AKA Church) He said your proud but you should be in mourning and then put HIM out of your fellowship, NOT put yourself out of his fellowship. We shouldn’t separate ourselves from the heathen within the Church, the Church should put the heathen brothers or sisters out of the Church.

    NIV:
    3 For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this.

    Ken:
    See, even Paul cast judgment and calls it like he sees it if it is blatant sin. He doesn’t beet around the bush and say that we should accept them, he says in another part of scripture that we should warn them twice and then put THEM out of fellowship with us, not vice versa.

    NIV:
    4 So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,[a][b] so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

    Ken:
    “Hand this man over to Satan” “not” remove yourself from his presence. “So that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord” Steve says that removing a person from the fellowship of believers causes ill effects but this verse obviously says “so that his spirit may be saved” so I don’t understand how Steve came to this conclusion.

    NIV:
    6 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are.

    Ken:
    In this verse yeast represents SIN and the batch of dough represents the gathering of believers AKA the Church. So he is essentially saying in this verse get the blatant sinner out of the Church so that the Church can be SIN free. Now I realize that everyone is a sinner and that repentance is necessary, but I think that a truly saved person automatically repents every time he or she sins (meaning we may sin but we don’t enjoy it the way we did before we got saved) but for a person to live in a lifestyle of blatant sin calls for harsh measures and that is if they refuse to repent (not to the Church but to God) that they need to be expelled from the Church before it spreads any further because SIN is like a cancer and it will kill a Body (the Body of Christ AKA the Church)

    NIV:
    For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

    KEN:
    Paul explains that we are under a new covenant (testament) and that blatant sin, even though it may have been ok in the old days (days of Pharisee rule) it is not to be tolerated in God’s Church.

    NIV:
    9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.

    KEN:
    How much clearer could Paul make it? He specifically said “I wrote to you” (the Church) and he explained “not at all meaning the people of this world” He goes on to explain that if he were talking about the people of this world then you would literally have to leave this world to stay away from them. But Paul wasn’t talking about unbelievers within the Church, he was talking about professed believers within the Church. FYI the people of this world means “unbelievers”

    NIV:
    11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

    Ken:
    “But now I am writing to YOU (the Church) that you must not associate with ANYONE who CLAIMS to be a BROTHER or SISTER (brother and sister are what believers commonly call each other referring to “brothers and sisters in Christ”) who is blatantly sinning. We are not even to eat with them (fellowship).

    NIV:
    12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.

    Ken:
    Paul’s saying how is it any of my business to Judge those outside the Church. He doesn’t care if unbelievers are sinning, he says that God will take care of them, besides that’s what unbelievers do they live in the flesh and the flesh is sinful but a Christian is supposed to be born again that’s why the Bible says for us to be ye in the world but not of the world. Finally Paul makes his final statement concerning this matter “Expel the wicked person from among you” “you” meaning the Church.

    Ken:
    So I would like for anyone who shares Steve’s opinion on Biblical separation to please try to explain to me how you can possibly come to this conclusion after reading this section of scripture.

    That’s it for now Good night all.
    Kenneth

    1. Kenneth, If there’s one thing you should know about me is that I’m VERY matter of fact when I communicate and write. I don’t beat around the bush nor do I sugar coat anything. If that comes across as mean or hateful then I’m sorry, but I can’t help it, that’s just the way I am. If you don’t like it or can’t tolerate it then bye.

      Before we continue, let’s get one thing straight. This is my site and you were invited here as a guest to have a discussion. I’ll not allow you to dictate to me how the discussion should go or what I should or shouldn’t do on this site. I’m allowing this discussion simply because you hold beliefs that our readers will most likely encounter among the IFB today and it can serve as a wonderful example of the arrogance and ignorance that blinds IFBers to the poverty of their own arguments.

      Also, show some respect please. I’m not going to be replying to personal attacks or personal questions anymore with you unless they are pertinent to the discussion. If you want to discuss the IFB or scriptures that’s fine, but if not then the discussion is over.

      As a result, I’m going to skip over the personal conversation because (1) it isn’t productive, (2) I’ll not allow you to draw me into a pissing contest and (3) anyone with half a brain can read through the discussion thus far and see that your accusations aren’t even close to being true.

      You seem to be taking this personally, but I can’t help that. That’s your problem not mine.

      Now having said that, allow me to spend some time with the scripture you reference and see about a rebuttal.

    2. Now I am going to bring up one topic from an earlier post before I close. I used the Verses of 1 Corinthians Chapter 5 verses 1-12. They read as follows from the NIV. Steve reminded me that he did not use the NIV but I only chose this version because it is the most popular in our modern time. Steve claimed that this verse was talking about separating ourselves from unbelievers and that we should be accepting of our own (the believers) differences and keep fellowship with one another. I want Steve and anyone else who would to explain to me how in the world you get his understanding from this verse?

      No you said that you were using the NIV ”just to show you that even your version supports separation.” In debates, it’s proper form to show that the other person may be trying to be deceptive by distorting what they’ve already said. That’s all I’m doing here.

      Another thing to keep in mind is that I’m not against Biblical separation. I’m just against the way the IFB teaches separation. Please visit the “Doctrine of Separation” page for more information about this.

      Now, to answer your question. We were talking about I Corinthians 5 in the context of the idea of a “local church”. As I’ve already said: Paul is addressing the Corinthian believers specifically not a particular “local church” but ALL Corinthian believers. The Corinthian believers had refused to deal with a specific sin among them and was ignoring the situation. The core of this passage is about ignoring sin especially among the body of believers. I don’t see how it supports the idea of a “local church”. Again I ask you, care to expound on that idea?

      You are confusing two different topics, which is a reason I recommended that we stick to one topic at a time so we don’t get confused. We weren’t talking about tolerating another believer’s sins, we were talking about doctrinal differences and differences in belief. I was saying that we should be willing to be accepting of another believer’s differences in interpretation of scripture and be willing to have an open discussion about them. The I Corinthians 5 passage is talking about sin among believers NOT differences in opinion or belief.

      I will break it up and explain my point of view so everyone can see where I’m coming from.

      This is a major issue I have with the IFB. Proper exegesis of scripture requires that one consider the context. It’s a hopeless venture to take one verse and try to interpret it’s meaning (in most cases). It’s also important to consider the cultural context as well as the scriptural context. This is why it’s impossible to have an exclusive word for word translation of scripture (a major issue I have with the KJV which is mostly a word for word interpretation). Consider if I said, “I made it by the skin of my teeth.” You couldn’t translate that phrase word for word into another culture’s language because that’s a phrase that’s unique to the American English speaking culture. You would have to translate the meaning of that phrase.

      The same applies here. Not only do we have to consider the entire context of that passage, but also we have to consider the context of the Corinthian church and culture. This is hermeneutics 101 stuff and I will show you examples below.

      NIV:
      1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate:
      Ken said:

      “even pagans do not tolerate” (pagans are unbelievers and Paul is obviously talking to the believers)

      Agreed, I believe I already stated that.

      NIV:
      A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this?

      Ken:
      Let’s remember who he’s talking to (the Believers who are in fellowship AKA Church) He said your proud but you should be in mourning and then put HIM out of your fellowship, NOT put yourself out of his fellowship. We shouldn’t separate ourselves from the heathen within the Church, the Church should put the heathen brothers or sisters out of the Church.

      He’s speaking to the body of believers in Corinth. Not a “local church”. When kept in context of the chapter (and book of I Corinthians) it’s plain to see that Paul isn’t addressing the “local” Baptist church with a building on the corner of Main and Broad street in downtown Corinth. He is speaking to ALL Christians.

      Also, he is talking about separating from someone with sin, not someone with a different doctrinal position or belief – why do I feel like I’m repeating myself?

      NIV:
      3 For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this.

      Ken:
      See, even Paul cast judgment and calls it like he sees it if it is blatant sin. He doesn’t beet around the bush and say that we should accept them, he says in another part of scripture that we should warn them twice and then put THEM out of fellowship with us, not vice versa.

      This is a different type of judgment then you are thinking of. This isn’t the judgmentalism that the IFB promotes. This isn’t Paul judging someone. He is talking about “passing judgment” as a judge in a court would. This was part of Corinthian culture to have an authority “pass judgment” on a particular law or custom (this is an example of cultural context that we often miss).

      This is a continuous thought and doesn’t end in verse 3. It continues through the rest of the chapter (this is an example of scriptural context). If you continuing reading the very next verse (verse 4) tells us what he is “passing judgment” on. He is passing judgment on the ruling of how the Christian’s of Corinth were to conduct themselves. There is a difference between finding someone guilty based on fact and reason and judging someone’s heart because they don’t believe the same way as you do.

      NIV:
      4 So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,[a][b] so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

      Ken:
      “Hand this man over to Satan” “not” remove yourself from his presence. “So that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord” Steve says that removing a person from the fellowship of believers causes ill effects but this verse obviously says “so that his spirit may be saved” so I don’t understand how Steve came to this conclusion.

      I never said that “removing a person from the fellowship of believers causes ill effects”. Our previous conversation about fellowship was fellowship with Christians that have different opinions or beliefs. We weren’t discussing sin. It appears that it’s not just scripture that you take out of context.

      NIV:
      6 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are.

      Ken:
      In this verse yeast represents SIN and the batch of dough represents the gathering of believers AKA the Church. So he is essentially saying in this verse get the blatant sinner out of the Church so that the Church can be SIN free. Now I realize that everyone is a sinner and that repentance is necessary, but I think that a truly saved person automatically repents every time he or she sins (meaning we may sin but we don’t enjoy it the way we did before we got saved) but for a person to live in a lifestyle of blatant sin calls for harsh measures and that is if they refuse to repent (not to the Church but to God) that they need to be expelled from the Church before it spreads any further because SIN is like a cancer and it will kill a Body (the Body of Christ AKA the Church)

      No, the yeast represents spiritual Pride. Notice the beginning of verse 6. ”Your boasting (emphasis mine) is not good.” Then he goes on to talk about how that sense of boastfulness or pride, if left unchecked, will eventually spoil the entire body of believers. Again, this is evident when taken in context.

      NIV:
      For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

      KEN:
      Paul explains that we are under a new covenant (testament) and that blatant sin, even though it may have been ok in the old days (days of Pharisee rule) it is not to be tolerated in God’s Church.

      Wow, that’s a stretch. Paul is simply extending the metaphor of yeast here nothing more.

      NIV:
      9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.

      KEN:
      How much clearer could Paul make it? He specifically said “I wrote to you” (the Church) and he explained “not at all meaning the people of this world” He goes on to explain that if he were talking about the people of this world then you would literally have to leave this world to stay away from them. But Paul wasn’t talking about unbelievers within the Church, he was talking about professed believers within the Church. FYI the people of this world means “unbelievers”

      Agreed, but I’m unclear how you are using this explanation to support your position.

      NIV:
      11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

      Ken:
      “But now I am writing to YOU (the Church) that you must not associate with ANYONE who CLAIMS to be a BROTHER or SISTER (brother and sister are what believers commonly call each other referring to “brothers and sisters in Christ”) who is blatantly sinning. We are not even to eat with them (fellowship).

      I’m not sure why you keep putting the Church in parenthesis. Care to explain?

      NIV:
      12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.

      Ken:
      Paul’s saying how is it any of my business to Judge those outside the Church. He doesn’t care if unbelievers are sinning, he says that God will take care of them, besides that’s what unbelievers do they live in the flesh and the flesh is sinful but a Christian is supposed to be born again that’s why the Bible says for us to be ye in the world but not of the world. Finally Paul makes his final statement concerning this matter “Expel the wicked person from among you” “you” meaning the Church.

      It’s hard for me to comment on these last verses (vs 10-12) separately since they aren’t separate thoughts. They are a continuous line of thinking and Paul is telling us that there needs to be balance.

      Paul makes it clear that we should not disassociate ourselves form unbelievers otherwise we wouldn’t be able to carry out Christ’s command to tell them about salvation. He is simply saying that we are to distance ourselves from the person who claims to be a Christian, yet indulges in sins explicitly forbidden in scripture by rationalizing his/her actions. By rationalizing sin, a person harms others for whom Christ died and dims the image of God in him/herself.

      These verses are instructions for dealing with open sin among the body of believers by a person who claims to be a Christian and yet who sins without remorse.

      Ken:
      So I would like for anyone who shares Steve’s opinion on Biblical separation to please try to explain to me how you can possibly come to this conclusion after reading this section of scripture.

      See above. See also the “Doctrine of Separation” page for additional information.

      Finally, can you please choose which subject you want to talk about and stick with it? Lets either discuss the topic of doctrinal/belief differences or the topic of Biblical separation. I’m getting confused by going back and forth. I’ll leave it up to you which one you want.

  22. Steve – As I read Kenneth’s response, I thought to myself, I don’t remember you calling him names and being abusive, I actually thought it was a good conversation, and was looking fwd to Kenneth’s response. So when I finished his response, I went back and re-read your comments to him, I feel you were to the point and very polite. I think what happened is that your response was so completely devastating to his IFB dogma that he didn’t know what to do, they are not used to thinking on their feet, or actually having to listen to someone’s opinion other than their own, so he decides to bow out and make up a contrived excuse about you calling him names as a way out. (notice he didn’t/couldn’t refute one of your points?)

    Btw, I think your explanations of the scripture that were being discussed was awesome, even had me re-thinking a couple of things. All of us come to most any subject with pre-conceived ideas based on what we have experienced or heard or have practiced. Kenneth and IFB’s come to the table with the idea that this is how church is to be done, why? Because that’s what they have been taught, the way they have been raised, and its just the way they do things. They can’t see past that. To them church is a guy standing up in front of them yelling about whatever topic he thinks is appropriate, the giving of so much authority to simple men is a huge problem in the IFB. Oh well I’m preaching to the choir here.

    I do also want to commend you on your handling of the verse on “not forsaking the assembly of yourselves together” I believe it was in the response to Kenneth before this last one. The IFB’s love this verse, and take it out of context constantly. Again they use it to keep their flocks in line and setting on the pews every Sunday, Wednesday and any other time they deem necessary. Just as you said you and your friend fulfil this everytime ya’ll get together for bible study, the verse just before that says “let us consider how we may spur one another on towards love and good deeds.” That’s alittle different than the way Kenneth and company teach that the MOG (man of God) has to yell at you in the church for 45 minutes, no where does this verse even hint at such a thing!

    @Kenneth, please re-read Steve’s reasoned response to every point, could it be that your understanding of these scriptures could be wrong? I know its scary for you that this could possibly be, but I promise you, if you find true grace and true christianity you will never go back, Jesus stands waiting for you.

    “Come out from among them (IFB’s) and be ye seperate” Now that’s seperation that I can appreciate.

  23. Well Steve this will be my last post on our discussion since it is obvious that you have no intention of allowing this to be a fair discussion. I obviously am not allowed to make any statements about my beliefs or the doctrine I hold to without being called a brainwashed robot. When I first mentioned the idea of having a discussion with you I thought I made it clear that a discussion is all I wanted to have not a school yard scuffle with you over who’s eight or who’s wrong. Steve before I leave this site I also want to mention that all I was trying to accomplish by visiting this site and engaging you in discussion was to allow the few people who visit this that come with an unbiased agenda might be able to see both sides of the fence not just your side. Steve I realize that you think that you and your small militia of followers interpretation of scripture and your biased knowledge of history and the Bible is the truth and your free to think so but for the rest of us millions of people around the world who see things differently from you we will stick to the fact that on the doctrinal teachings of the Bible God did not make it to hard to understand what he intended for us to do with the teachings he provided. Steve I would like to make a suggestion to you. This is that if you are really trying to do with this site what you claim you are then you really ought to allow rational unbiased discussion to take place not just you and your followers making broad accusations across the board towards the IFB and not allowing the IFB members who visit here to make statements in their defense without being called names and having their intelligence insulted by yourself and your followers. I mean Steve, if you really want this site to be a place where Ex-IFBers or any other person who has allegedly encountered this “spiritual abuse” you speak of can come and discuss what has happened to them so you guys can all come together and somehow comfort and heal each other then why don’t you make it just that? Why not make this a members only website where only those who claim this abuse can post comments and read discussions without us evil brainwashed cult people interrupting your therapy with our unbiblical nonsense? Honestly, why allow us to speak at all if you are trying to help people escape the teachings of the IFB when all we bring to your site is our same old legalistic distorted teachings? By the way Steve, did it ever occur to you that maybe some if not many of us may of had our beliefs that we hold so dearly long before we ever set foot in an IFB Church or maybe before we set foot in any Church at all? So explain how those folks, including myself were brainwashed and turned into robots by the IFB? Steve I see a lot of haste and disgust on your site from your side that cannot be explained away by using the argument that it’s hard for readers to see people true attitude and emotions in writing because everybody can tell that you guy’s and gal’s are perfectly polite and accepting to those who agree with you. God forbid though that anybody question your beliefs or stances. You know Steve, What’s going on on this site is more cult like in nature than the Churches you are trying to bring down. It’s as if you are using the same tactics to defend yourself as the tactics you claim the IFB used to drive you away. I guess what I am trying to say is that you really ought to try and take a break from being right about everything all the time and consider what you are really doing with this site. Are you really trying to help people or are you simply trying to start a hate movement with your biased agenda? Steve, I realize you are probably thinking to yourself that this is my way of getting out of this discussion before I embarrass myself any further with my lack of knowledge but I learned a long time ago that when two people are having a debate or discussion and one side turns to name calling or insulting of the other persons intelligence that the other person either has a hateful attitude or they have simply ran out of arguments that hold any weight to the truth and therefore go into defensive mode to try to hold on to any thread of pride they have left and I’m afraid that this may be what has happened to you and maybe a few other regulars on this site. If this is the case then I encourage you to rethink what you are trying to accomplish on this site but if this is not the case then I think that there are a few people who are harboring a lot of hate and need to get their hearts right with God. By the way, sarcasm, the way it is most often used by the followers of this site is nothing more than calling people who don’t agree with you stupid. It’s kinda like me saying to a person who doesn’t think the same as me, “ha ha you think the Bible says this but if you weren’t so retarded and used the same Bible as me (the more intelligent person) then you would know that it really says this you big dummy. But it’s ok though don’t get mad at me because I’m just being sarcastic and I can say whatever I want to anyone I want as long as I say it sarcastically”. So here’s my final statement Steve. If your going to continue to do what you claim you are trying to do then I think it’s time for you to start doing this in a godly less abusive manner. You say you are trying to help those who were abused but you are actually just abusing those who you claim caused the abuse. I’m sure you are familiar with the saying that two wrongs don’t make a right so let’s start doing it right shall we?

    Till we meet again somewhere other than this site,
    Kenneth

    1. How am I not allowing it to be a fair discussion? You are free to write anything you wish. If you want to have a discussion then let’s have a discussion. If you want it to be just you and I so my “followers” (rolling my eyes) don’t interfere then let me know and we can do that. I’ve already offered that to you.

      If not then I bid you ado and a hardy thanks for providing more evidence for what I speak out against on this site. I will let your “last post” speak for itself. I will stand above replying to your ad hominem attacks and accusations.

      Since you are leaving, I would like to say one final thing though – and this is more for those who have been following the discussion since you probably won’t even read this. You started out by contacting me to get to know me before you started a discussion. Well, you haven’t yet done that. You asked me a bunch of surface questions that have nothing to do with the core of why I have this site. You have no idea what I’ve been through or what my message truly is.

      You ignore the thousands of people who have come here to support this site and share similar stories. You think that somehow YOU KNOW what’s best for me and this site and refuse to consider that maybe, just maybe, I’m acting on direction from the Holy Spirit. How typically arrogant and judgmental.

      Because of that I perceive you as I perceive others in the IFB and others who have come here to try and change me under the guise of “having a discussion”. I’ve been around the block enough times to recognize IFB dogma when I see it. So well done! You have lived up to what I’ve come to expect from the IFB.

      Bye

  24. John – Had never heard of the guy, it was excellent, so many good points, how does one argue with such plain and simple teaching.

  25. Kenneth said:

    Like it or not different people believe different things and this is really all that a “Denomination” is, it is simply a sign on the side of the street stating what the core beliefs of that congregation or body believes or what their interpretation of doctrine is.

    Steve said:
    But I disagree that those differences should separate and divide us. We should be accepting of each other’s differences and have open, healthy discussions about them rather than split off and one person go to one church and another person go to another church each with their tails between their legs sulking and hurt. Denominations only spread the message that “you and I have irreconcilable differences so we shouldn’t associate or worship together”. I don’t find support for that in the Bible
    And then Kenneth said and pasted as follows:
    Well Steve, here is just a tiny amount of the support the Bible has to offer. Hey I even used the NIV so you couldn’t accuse me of using a “faulty or outdated version. Actually, I couldn’t believe that the NIV actually agreed with me and didn’t change the meanings of these verses. Come on Steve throw me a bone, I forced myself to read passages from the NIV (it was gut wrenching by the way) just to show you that even your version supports separation. Everyone says that If I use the NIV I will be able to understand scripture better so these verses either agree with what I previously stated or I must be the dumbest man alive because I can’t understand the NIV.
    “Keep in mind readers that I chose verses that were speaking specifically to the Church, about members of the Church not to the Church about unbelievers.”
    1 Corinthians 5
    1 Corinthians 5
    1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? 3 For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. 4 So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,[a][b] so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
    6 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
    (pay special attention to the first part highlighted (the Church))
    9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
    (Right here Paul even explains that he is not judging the unbelievers and that it is our job(the Churches) to judge whether a person within the Church is a problem or not and whether or not they should be dealt with)
    12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”[d]

    Romans 16:17 (self explanatory)
    17 I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.

    (how are supposed to have nothing to do with them if we allow them to keep fellowship with us?)
    Titus 3:10-11 (
    10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them. 11 You may be sure that such people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned.
    2 John 1:9-11
    (Why would he warn us about this problem within the Church and offer us a stern warning if were supposed to just allow it to go on?)
    9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. 11 Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work.

    Galatians 1:6-9 NIV
    If we as a body have an accepted belief and are united in it we should not allow anyone whether inside our outside our Church to cause confusion or pervert our teachings
    6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

    Kenneth said:
    blockquote>Nondenominational bodies are simply, whether they realize it or not, stating that we have no specific doctrine that we teach here and just welcome anybody no matter what they believe to attend.
    Steve said:
    I’m afraid that you are misinformed. Non-denominational churches are saying “all are welcome REGARDLESS of disagreements and different interpretations. Lets site down and discuss it openly and freely with acceptance and love.” This is true scriptural community. The Holy Spirit works through love, truth, and freedom. The Holy Spirit leaves us free to come to our own conclusions and that’s how God wins the heart. (Really Steve? Then what about 2 Peter 1:20? Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation Sorry Steve but I had to use the KJV on this one because the NIV butchered it beyond recognition). Paul wrote in Romans 14:5 “Let all be fully convinced in their own minds” not “let us develop denominations and preach at people to believe a certain way.”Steve you must remember that the bible teaches that there is one faith, one Lord and one baptism. Denominations say, “I reject you if you don’t believe exactly as I do.” Rejection encourages rebellion and fear. No I’m afraid not. Rejection encourages REPENTENCE That’s not what God had in mind for his children. No I’m afraid you are mistaken denominations don’t say that and neither do just regular old Christians. Us regular old Christians say ”I reject you if you if you come in among us with any unscriptural doctrine”.

    Kenneth Said:

    This is because the word of God is very divisive, it (let me correct myself) Jesus even says this about (himself) itself.
    Steve said:

    Where does it say this?
    Kenneth Said:
    Matthew 10:34-36
    34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
    “‘a man against his father,
    a daughter against her mother,
    a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
    36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household
    This teaching Jesus brings is talking about his doctrine (the Bible) and it is obviously true or there wouldn’t be so much division over the word of God, especially when Jesus is the Word of God.

    Kenneth said:

    It is nearly impossible to preach the word of God to people who do not interpret scripture the same way as you.

    Steve said:
    Really? Why? I don’t think that’s impossible at all.
    Kenneth said:
    Because there would be constant division because some hold fast to the teachings of the Bible and some want a man made watered down feel good message.
    Kenneth said:
    …but could you imagine a Pentecostal walk into a Baptist Church or vice versa?
    Steve said:
    No I can’t. That’s the problem.
    Kenneth said:
    Yes it is a problem but Biblical separation is the correct approach to this matter.
    Kenneth said:

    As you can see these two persons or bodies could never find a common ground on these two matters,

    Steve said:
    Where in the Bible does it say that we should only meet with people who we find common ground with?
    Kenneth said:
    See first rebuttal in this post
    Kenneth said:

    so you are left with few options. One, they could say ok let’s just agree that even though we both see things in different ways we will still have fellowship with one another and we will just not preach or teach anything decisive, Or we could do it the way I believe the Bible teaches for us to handle this issue and we could seperate ourselves from each other and attend a Church where the Pastor and Teachers are free to teach and preach as deeply as they want to the doctrines that that denomination or body believes… Finally, another option is to not attend Church at all and stay home and “self teach” ourselves the word of God which is completely unscriptural.

    Steve said:
    Why only those three options? What are other, more balanced options?
    Kenneth said: I don’t know ask God. He didn’t mention any others in the Bible.
    Kenneth said:

    not attend Church at all and stay home and “self teach” ourselves the word of God which is completely unscriptural.

    Steve said:
    As a mentor once responded to me when I would ignorantly share what “knew” about the Bible… Oh Yeah??
    Kenneth said:
    I did not in any way discourage a personal home study, I simply made the statement that staying at home and self teaching ourselves is not a replacement for Church.
    Steve and Kenneth said (Kenneth will be in bold):
    What about I Corinthians 2:9-13 where we are told that we are to rely on the Holy Spirit’s illumination to gain insights into the applications and meanings of Scripture.Well Steve heres another example of scripture butchering by the NIV. This portion of scripture is simply talking about the Gospel, it is not talking about searching anything out in the scripture. It is talking about the Holy Spirit leading ones heart to believe the gospel message and nothing more. I don’t find anything in scripture that points to the idea of allowing a Pastor to illuminate the meanings and applications of scripture, do you? Well Steve again, then whats the point of God providing us with these people, and yes there is scripture to back this but I am running out of time and will have to look them up later. In fact I Thessalonians 5 we are told to 19 Do not stifle the Holy Spirit…21 but test everything that is said.. Also the Bereans in Acts 17:11 11 And the people of Berea were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, and they listened eagerly to Paul’s message. They searched the Scriptures day after day to see if Paul and Silas were teaching the truth.. “Self teaching” is a reliable way to gain insight and understanding about scripture. As I mentioned above I have nothing against a personal home study, in fact I encourage it but it is not to be a replacement for Church.
    Again Kenneths in Bold:

    I know a lot of people would argue this fact with me but I have yet to have anyone prove to me that the Bible teaches that this is the correct way of Church.

    Really? Or could it be that you have a closed mind and refuse to see it any other way? Or are you so used to “doing church” a certain way that you simply can’t see it? Well Steve we will see who is closed minded after you read all the scripture references I have provided you above disproving your own ideas even out of your newer “better” translation.
    Keeping it going with Kenneth still in Bold:

    If this were the correct way then what would be the point of Pastors and Teachers, Deacons and Elders? These Are not man made titles or positions these are all taught in scripture and ordained of God.

    I assume you are referring to I Timothy 3? Can you show me where this advocates, or even implies, that we should employ those offices the way we currently do in our “local churches”? Yes I can see below.
    Ephesians 4:11-13
    11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
    Kenneth in bold:
    These are simply titles of leadership among the body of believers, the true church. They in no way support the idea of a “local church”! Ephesians 4:11-13 states: 11 Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers. 12 Their responsibility is to equip God’s people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ. 13 This will continue until we all come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of God’s Son that we will be mature in the Lord, measuring up to the full and complete standard of Christ. Exactly Steve. How do you think that these people in these offices are going to accomplish this without preaching and teaching? So Steve, if what you are implying is correct, that we should not attend a local Church but self teach ourselves within our homes then I suppose you have people who hold all of these ORDAINED offices within your home gathering correct? I mean if your going to do that then lets stay true to scripture right?
    Steve said:
    Notice the phrase “the Body of Christ”? This isn’t a reference to the “local church” but the universal Body of Believers. Even more, no where in scripture can I find anything even remotely suggesting that the “pastor” would be the main player or leader in the “local church” with the role of preaching to a congregation of Believers each Sunday morning, Sunday evening and Wednesday evening. This is simply a misinterpretation of scripture. If it is in the Bible somewhere please show me
    Kenneth said:
    Again Steve I will have to provide you with more scripture but its starting to get late and right now I can’t even fathom how you can’t see it when the entire new testament overwhelmingly teaches it. I’ll get back with you with some scripture.
    Kenneth in Bold again:

    So Steve I need you to explain to me exactly what you mean by “institutionalized” .

    I think I already answered this above. Yes I think you tried but you left me even more dumbfounded then when I was when I began reading as to how you can possibly think that this is correct.
    Steve said:
    Finally, for the purpose of discussion, it may be beneficial to allow me to reply to one comment before posting another or even moving on to a different topic. It will help keep things organized and going smoothly.
    Kenneth said:
    I agree and appreciate that Steve and as Im sure you have already noticed, I also tried to do my part in helping to keep things easier to follow.
    Good bye for now and God Bless
    Kenneth

    1. Well Steve, here is just a tiny amount of the support the Bible has to offer. Hey I even used the NIV so you couldn’t accuse me of using a “faulty or outdated version. Actually, I couldn’t believe that the NIV actually agreed with me and didn’t change the meanings of these verses. Come on Steve throw me a bone, I forced myself to read passages from the NIV (it was gut wrenching by the way) just to show you that even your version (emphasis mine) supports separation. Everyone says that If I use the NIV I will be able to understand scripture better so these verses either agree with what I previously stated or I must be the dumbest man alive because I can’t understand the NIV.

      I don’t use the NIV. What was that about getting to know me before you started making accusations and assumptions?

      “Keep in mind readers that I chose verses that were speaking specifically to the Church, about members of the Church not to the Church about unbelievers.”

      Again I ask, how does this support the idea of a “local church” that we know of in today’s society?

      1 Corinthians 5… (Right here Paul even explains that he is not judging the unbelievers and that it is our job(the Churches) to judge whether a person within the Church is a problem or not and whether or not they should be dealt with)

      Can you show me where in this passage Paul talks about the “local church” as we know of it in today’s society? Paul is addressing the Corinthian believers specifically not a particular “local church” but ALL Corinthian believers. The Corinthian believers had refused to deal with a specific sin among them and was ignoring the situation. The core of this passage is about ignoring sin. I don’t see how it supports the idea of a “local church”. It also doesn’t advocate judging others. It’s talking about not tolerating flagrant sin among the body of believers.

      Romans 16:17 (self explanatory)
      17 I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.

      You forgot the rest of the passage. Verse 18 is vital to the message of this passage. Verse 18 states: “Such people are not serving Christ our Lord; (indicating that these are people who are preachers, teachers, educators among the body of believers) they are serving their own personal interests. By smooth talk and glowing words they deceive innocent people.” This is a great word picture of exactly what happens in today’s “local church”. People use “smooth talk and glowing words” to manipulate people and deceive them (e.g., tithing). We are to “keep away from them”. This is the exact reason I left the IFB. I was tired of the “smooth talk and glowing words” that served only to deceive people.

      (how are supposed to have nothing to do with them if we allow them to keep fellowship with us?)

      We aren’t. We are supposed to get away, which is what I talk about on this site.

      Titus 3:10-11 – 10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them. 11 You may be sure that such people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned.

      Again, this only serves to support my position. My commentary about this passage states: “A person must be warned when he or she is causing division that threatens the unity of the church (the body of believers).” That’s what I’m doing on this site. I’m warning the people of the IFB because they are “causing division that threatens the unity of the church.”

      2 John 1:9-11
      (Why would he warn us about this problem within the Church and offer us a stern warning if were supposed to just allow it to go on?)

      When did I ever say or even imply that we are “supposed to just allow it to go on”? I think you still have the wrong idea about me and the message I cary.

      Galatians 1:6-9

      Exactly!!! Galatians 1:6-9 is about the exact thing I talk about on the site. Some people were preaching “a different way.” They were teaching that it was important to follow the laws and customs. Galatians goes on to remind believers that we no longer need to follow such laws. This verse is about legalistic righteousness, a concept I overtly condemn on this site. Thanks again for helping support my position.

      Kenneth Said:

      This is because the word of God is very divisive, it (let me correct myself) Jesus even says this about (himself) itself.

      Steve said: Where does it say this?

      Kenneth Said:
      Matthew 10:34-36
      34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
      “‘a man against his father,
      a daughter against her mother,
      a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
      36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household

      This teaching Jesus brings is talking about his doctrine (the Bible) and it is obviously true or there wouldn’t be so much division over the word of God, especially when Jesus is the Word of God.

      Matthew 10:34-36 is about a Christian’s commitment to separate from people and loved ones who refuse to follow Christ NOT who refuse to believe the same doctrine. He is saying the because some will follow Christ and some won’t, conflict is inevitable. Even so we aren’t supposed to neglect our family, but try and make your commitment to God a priority. I can’t believe your blatant misinterpretation of scripture (actually I can believe it unfortunately). How blind the IFB has made you. This passage has nothing to do with separating from other believers who have differences in doctrinal positions.

      Kenneth said:

      It is nearly impossible to preach the word of God to people who do not interpret scripture the same way as you.

      Steve said:
      Really? Why? I don’t think that’s impossible at all.

      Kenneth said:
      Because there would be constant division because some hold fast to the teachings of the Bible and some want a man made watered down feel good message.

      I still don’t see how that’s a bad thing. We are supposed to take time to have healthy discussions about things we disagree on. We shouldn’t allow disagreements separate us. See Proverbs 27:17 for starters.

      Kenneth said:
      …but could you imagine a Pentecostal walk into a Baptist Church or vice versa?

      Steve said:
      No I can’t. That’s the problem.

      Kenneth said:
      Yes it is a problem but Biblical separation is the correct approach to this matter.

      Again, separation is about separating from unbelievers NOT other believers who have different doctrinal beliefs.

      Kenneth said:

      so you are left with few options. One, they could say ok let’s just agree that even though we both see things in different ways we will still have fellowship with one another and we will just not preach or teach anything decisive, Or we could do it the way I believe the Bible teaches for us to handle this issue and we could seperate ourselves from each other and attend a Church where the Pastor and Teachers are free to teach and preach as deeply as they want to the doctrines that that denomination or body believes… Finally, another option is to not attend Church at all and stay home and “self teach” ourselves the word of God which is completely unscriptural.

      Steve said:
      Why only those three options? What are other, more balanced options?

      Kenneth said: I don’t know ask God. He didn’t mention any others in the Bible.

      What about smaller group in home meetings? The New Testament shows that the early Christian church exhibited a simplicity of fellowship and interactive practice that is typically not the case in conventional denominations. They believe that Christians walked closely with each other, in close fellowship, sharing their lives in Christ together. (see Matthew 18:20, Romans 16:5, Colossians 4:15, Philemon 1:2 – just to name a few). The “walking closely and sharing their lives together” is often lost in the larger churches that we have in today’s society.

      Kenneth said:
      I did not in any way discourage a personal home study, I simply made the statement that staying at home and self teaching ourselves is not a replacement for Church.

      Actually you stated “Or we could do it the way I believe the Bible teaches (emphasis mine) for us to handle this issue and we could seperate ourselves from each other and attend a Church where the Pastor and Teachers are free to teach and preach as deeply as they want to the doctrines that that denomination or body believes…” Implying that the only Biblical way is to do denominations. Yet you still haven’t provided support for that using scripture.

      Then I said that isn’t the ONLY “biblical” way. To which you simply hand waved and said, “I don’t know, ask God…” That’s not really a very strong argument. Not very convincing I must say.

      Well Steve we will see who is closed minded after you read all the scripture references I have provided you above disproving your own ideas even out of your newer “better” translation.

      I’ve refuted your misinterpretation of scriptures. You haven’t disproved anything. You have only proved that you can robotically regurgitate what the IFB teaches.

      Exactly Steve. How do you think that these people in these offices are going to accomplish this without preaching and teaching? So Steve, if what you are implying is correct, that we should not attend a local Church but self teach ourselves within our homes then I suppose you have people who hold all of these ORDAINED offices within your home gathering correct? I mean if your going to do that then lets stay true to scripture right?

      I never said they would accomplish it without preaching and teaching. The Bible doesn’t say that these “offices” have to be held in a “local church” like we do today. They are simply titles of leadership, nothing more.

      Finally, I’m sorry if I missed something. It’s really hard to follow your jumbled up mess of a reply. I know you were trying to bold and separate things for ease of follow, but it didn’t work. Perhaps we should stick to one topic at a time. It would certainly be less confusing, at least to me.

  26. Hey Steve sorry it has taken so long for me to reply. Sorry I didn’t think to leave you a scripture reference. The Churches I was referring to are in Revelation chp. 3. I still dont think you understand where I’m coming from on the denominational issue. I agree with that we shouldn’t have a Church on every corner. I live in a town of about 3,500 people and we have 27 Curches in our town! I find this to be ridiculous. The main reason behind so many Churches is the good ole problem of rebelliousness. When a member of a Church gets there toes stepped on, instead of handling the problem Biblically and repent where necessary them just let their feelins get hurt and run off and start their own new Church and before you know it you have a tiny town with 27 Churches with the majority of them having fewer than 10 active members each. The truth is that you are right that there should not be that many Churches in such a small area and to add to that the majority of these Churches are not even scripturally relevant because they were not established according to scripture. On the other hand though, there is a need for different denominations. Keep in mind that I do agree with you that denominalzationism in the way you describe it isn’t scriptural but for a person who is searching out a new Church I think it is important that before a person enters into the doors of a new Church that they know what doctrinal teaching they can expect when they enter inside. This is one reason I have no respect for the nondenomination movement today. These Churches in my opinion might as well have a big sign out front that reads “we are to spineless to place any of our doctrinal beliefs on this sign because we are scared of a little confrontation just please a check in the offering plate for us and please don’t question what we preach here were just here to put on a good show” How’s that for a lengthy sign. The fact is, even though I don’t agree whatsoever with any Catholic doctrine, I still have more respect for them because at least they have enough back bone to to place their stance, no matter how twisted it may be by placing their “denomination” on their sign in front of their buildings. You must understand, I don’t agree with the fact that there are so many denominations in fact their should only be one, Christian. Unfortunately we don’t live in a perfect world though and we are left with numerous “man made” denominations” each claiming to be the correct or true Church. Still though we are commanded in scripture to not forsake the gathering together of ourselves. Without looking it up right now to be sure, I believe that’s found in Hebrews 10:25. So in our imperfect world we are forced to either shun Church altogether which is absolutely unscriptural or go out and find a sign on the side of a building that states what doctrine we want to be taught. Like I said though this isn’t a perfect world.

    Switching now to your other point about institutionalized. I must agree with you the way you describe it. Thankfully though, I don’t have that problem at my Church. You havnt mentioned what part of the country you live in but I am assuming you are from a northern, far east or far west state because you have obviously seen or been in far larger and more financially endowed Churches than are in my region because I have never seen an IFB Curch inside of a muti million dollar building. You just don’t find those in the part of Texas I live in. The “I” in IFB is supposed to stand for independent. Therefore we are not or at least are not supposed to be chained or linked together in any way. The idea of multiple Churches banding together a pooling their financial and clergical resources together is absolutely in no way scriptural. This idea was originally started by the Roman Catholic Church and due to the Protestant reformation these flawed and unbiblical practices carried on with those who left the Catholic Church. I can say for fact though that a true IFB Church does not claim to be Protestant because we were never in anyway associated with the RCC. As I mentioned in an earlier post the true people of the IFB can trace their doctrinal roots all the way back to the original Church that Christ ordained. So to make a long story short Steve, I agree 100 percent with you as far a your complaints go but like I have asked you before, in all fairness it isn’t fair to say that these accusations are across the board are related to the IFB Church. Maybe the ones you attended and perhaps many others who have complained about abuse on this site may have come across these problems and I’m not saying that these allegations are unfounded but I can honestly tell you that they do not represent the doctrinal teachings of the IFB Church as a whole because the truth is that the IFB is not a whole, each and every IFB is an independent organization not governed by any outside power. If the ones you attended were guilty of this then perhaps you need to call them out by name and say that they either need to start acting like an IFB Church is supposed to or they need to drop the “I” and go join the Southern Baptist Convention where one would expect these types of allegations to pour out of it’s members mouths on a regular basis.

    I probably won’t be able to post again until Tuesday afternoon so good by for now.

    1. Hey Steve sorry it has taken so long for me to reply.

      I’d rather you take longer. I can’t keep up with you. I barely have time to reply to one post and you’ve already posted three more.

      On the other hand though, there is a need for different denominations. Keep in mind that I do agree with you that denominalzationism in the way you describe it isn’t scriptural but for a person who is searching out a new Church I think it is important that before a person enters into the doors of a new Church that they know what doctrinal teaching they can expect when they enter inside.

      You agree that it isn’t scriptural yet you continue to promote it.

      Can you please show me where in the Bible it talks about the importance of a person “knowing what doctrinal teaching they can expect when they enter inside” a particular church? How is that supported with scripture?

      This is one reason I have no respect for the nondenomination movement today. These Churches in my opinion might as well have a big sign out front that reads “we are to spineless to place any of our doctrinal beliefs on this sign because we are scared of a little confrontation just please a check in the offering plate for us and please don’t question what we preach here were just here to put on a good show” How’s that for a lengthy sign.

      I’m afraid that you are simply misinformed about the “non-denominational movement”. It isn’t like that at all. This is called a straw man fallacy. It just isn’t logical or correct.

      You must understand, I don’t agree with the fact that there are so many denominations in fact their should only be one, Christian. Unfortunately we don’t live in a perfect world though and we are left with numerous “man made” denominations” each claiming to be the correct or true Church.

      You disagree with it yet you still promote it. What were you saying about the Catholic church taking a stand on what they believe? Can you say hypocrite.

      Still though we are commanded in scripture to not forsake the gathering together of ourselves. Without looking it up right now to be sure, I believe that’s found in Hebrews 10:25. So in our imperfect world we are forced to either shun Church altogether which is absolutely unscriptural or go out and find a sign on the side of a building that states what doctrine we want to be taught. Like I said though this isn’t a perfect world.

      No that’s not a command and it doesn’t mean that we need to go to church. It’s a stretch to say the least that this verse promotes the way we do church currently.

      You are a master at the cognitive distortion called all or nothing thinking. It’s either go to church or we don’t fulfill the admonishment of Hebrews 10:25? How silly.

      “The gathering of ourselves together” in no way promotes the kind of denominationalism that we see today. My friend and I have a Bible study on Thursday mornings. We are two Christians “gathering together”. That all that verse means. It doesn’t mean that we are supposed to go to a church building and meet the way we do in today’s society. That’s a lie from the Devil.

      Switching now to your other point about institutionalized. I must agree with you the way you describe it. Thankfully though, I don’t have that problem at my Church.

      So I guess since YOU don’t have that problem then we shouldn’t worry about it? What about the other 7 Billion people on the planet? Have you ever thought about them? I’m being a bit sarcastic obviously, but you keep saying essentially, “you’re right but that doesn’t apply to me so let me hand wave it away and pretend it doesn’t happen.”

      The “I” in IFB is supposed to stand for independent. Therefore we are not or at least are not supposed to be chained or linked together in any way. The idea of multiple Churches banding together a pooling their financial and clergical resources together is absolutely in no way scriptural. This idea was originally started by the Roman Catholic Church and due to the Protestant reformation these flawed and unbiblical practices carried on with those who left the Catholic Church. I can say for fact though that a true IFB Church does not claim to be Protestant because we were never in anyway associated with the RCC.

      This simply isn’t true. The IFB would like you to think that of course, but most IFB churches are started as a “sister or daughter church” of another IFB church. My family helped start three of them. They weren’t allowed to operate unless they did things the exact same way as the “sending” church. There may not be a national convention that each church answers to or a corporate identity, but there is certainly not “independence” in the sense that the IFB would have you think. The term “Independent” is truly a misnomer. The idea that the IFB church is “independent” is a blatant lie at best and manipulation at worst.

      The IFB really is a brand – for lack of a better term. To think otherwise is nothing short of delusional. Here’s why…

      A person who is an Independent Fundamental Baptist calls himself/herself such because they WANT to associate with a certain set of beliefs and values. You, for example, are no doubt associating with the IFB because that’s what you WANT to be – and for all reasons you have. This is YOUR association not mine. I didn’t choose that association for you. The same is true for a particular church. If a particular church or congregation call themselves Independent Fundamental Baptist then they are associating with all that represents an Independent Fundamental Baptist church. That’s their association.

      If a church doesn’t want the association of Independent, Fundamental, Baptist, Methodist or whatever, then they shouldn’t associate as such. The error in association is the church’s not mine. This isn’t blame shifting, but simple common sense. If a church calls itself Independent Fundamental Baptist then it needs to be willing to accept the associations that go along with it – both good and bad.

      As I mentioned in an earlier post the true people of the IFB can trace their doctrinal roots all the way back to the original Church that Christ ordained.

      Again, You are committing the logical fallacy called: Argumentum ad antiquitatem (the argument to antiquity or tradition). Just because something has a rich history or strong roots doesn’t necessarily make it right or correct.

      …in all fairness it isn’t fair to say that these accusations are across the board are related to the IFB Church. Maybe the ones you attended and perhaps many others who have complained about abuse on this site may have come across these problems and I’m not saying that these allegations are unfounded but I can honestly tell you that they do not represent the doctrinal teachings of the IFB Church as a whole because the truth is that the IFB is not a whole, each and every IFB is an independent organization not governed by any outside power. If the ones you attended were guilty of this then perhaps you need to call them out by name and say that they either need to start acting like an IFB Church is supposed to or they need to drop the “I” and go join the Southern Baptist Convention where one would expect these types of allegations to pour out of it’s members mouths on a regular basis.

      The IFB would like you to think that they are “Independent” of course, but most IFB churches aren’t really. There may not be a national convention that each church answers to or a corporate identity, but there is certainly not “independence” in the sense that the IFB would have you think. The term “Independent” is truly a misnomer. The idea that the IFB church is “independent” is a blatant lie at best and manipulation at worst.

      The IFB really is a brand – for lack of a better term. To think otherwise is nothing short of delusional. Here’s why…

      A person who is an Independent Fundamental Baptist calls himself/herself such because they WANT to associate with a certain set of beliefs and values. You, for example, are no doubt associating with the IFB because that’s what you WANT to be – and for all reasons you have. This is YOUR association not mine. I didn’t choose that association for you. The same is true for a particular church. If a particular church or congregation call themselves Independent Fundamental Baptist then they are associating with all that represents an Independent Fundamental Baptist church. That’s their association.

      If a church doesn’t want the association of Independent, Fundamental, Baptist, Methodist or whatever, then they shouldn’t associate as such. The error in association is the church’s not mine. This isn’t blame shifting, but simple common sense. If a church calls itself Independent Fundamental Baptist then it needs to be willing to accept the associations that go along with it – both good and bad.

      I probably won’t be able to post again until Tuesday afternoon so good by for now.

      Please take your time. I can’t keep up.

  27. Hey Steve before I move onto another topic I want to say one more thing about the denomination thing. I don’t care what Church calls itself. I don’t care if they call themselves the Church of the flying spaghetti monster, I would attend it if it taught the core doctrinal teachings I believe to be found in the word of God. The reason I choose to call myself a Baptist though is because of, first it’s teachings and second because of it’s rich history tracing it’s roots all the way back to the first century Church. Woe Woe Woe! I know that some of your readers and maybe even yourself are about to say that now I’m just nuts but I didn’t say the denomination traces it’s roots back that far. What I meant by that is that our teachings and traditions can all be traced back to the first century Church. There’s a big difference. We didn’t start being CALLED Baptist until about three or four hundred A.D. when we first started to be called Anabaptist meaning the rebaptizers or followers of John the Baptist. In our rich history at one point we were even called Paulicians because we were so staunch that the teachings of Paul were just as authorative as the letters we find in red in our Bibles. Still today people will argue the fact that Pauls writings are equal to the rest of the Bible but even Peter said that Pauls teachings are scripture. The definition of scripture did not and has not changed from the times Jesus asked his listeners to find out the answer to one of their questions “what sayeth the scripture” to the time when Peter called Pauls teachings scripture.

    1. You may understand and have the capacity to not get caught up in denominational differences but you are a minority. There are millions of people who don’t understand it and the mature Christians are perpetuating a lie that one should “do church” a certain way because of “rich history” or other silly reason. It’s absolutely ridiculous.

      You are committing the logical fallacy called: Argumentum ad antiquitatem (the argument to antiquity or tradition). This is the argument that something is right or acceptable because of tradition or history.

      Can you please show me in the Bible where it teaches the importance of going to a church/denomination that is a “rich history”?

  28. Hi Kenney – I responded to your comments on the KJV only deception link, and also responded to your comments on “about this site” I would be interested to hear your answers/comments to my responses. I am having a terrible time getting stuff to post, else I would try to post them over here. If you are interested you can post your answers to my responses over here and I will try to do likewise.

    Tks, Greg

  29. Hey Steve I’m back and I would like to continue my explanation of the local Church. Please note I’m not trying to say your beliefs are irrelevant I’m just telling you where I am coming from.
    I said in my previous posting that we shouldn’t just all call ourselves Christians, before anybody takes that the wrong way I want to explain what I mean by that. First of all of course I think if a person claims to be saved by Jesus Christ that they should call themselves Christian but that doesn’t mean that we should all attend the same gathering place or places because we claim one common Savior. Like it or not different people believe different things and this is really all that a “Denomination” is, it is simply a sign on the side of the street stating what the core beliefs of that congregation or body believes or what their interpretation of doctrine is. Nondenominational bodies are simply, whether they realize it or not, stating that we have no specific doctrine that we teach here and just welcome anybody no matter what they believe to attend. Am I saying that people who attend the Churches don’t get fed the word of God or that salvation doesnt ever happen in these places. Of course not! but what I am saying is that it’s nearly if not impossible to get very deep into the serious meat of the word of God. This is because the word of God is very divisive, it even says this about itself. It is nearly impossible to preach the word of God to people who do not interpret scripture the same way as you. Of course at very basics of the Christian faith, yes, we do all have Jesus in common (but I say this very lightly because the Jesus teaches that there will be many different versions of Jesus) but could you imagine a Pentecostal walk into a Baptist Church or vice versa? This would be very confusing to both sides because both see the teachings of the Bible from a very different perspective. One says that speaking in tounges is the evidence of your salvation and the other says there’s no such thing as speaking in tongues. One says that because of the grace of God and or complete faith in his Son Jesus we have salvation the other says that no, we must do good works in order to obtain salvation. As you can see these two persons or bodies could never find a common ground on these two matters, so you are left with few options. One, they could say ok let’s just agree that even though we both see things in different ways we will still have fellowship with one another and we will just not preach or teach anything decisive. Or we could do it the way I believe the Bible teaches for us to handle this issue and we could seperate ourselves from each other and attend a Church where the Pastor and Teachers are free to teach and preach as deeply as they want to the doctrines that that denomination or body believes. With this option Preachers and Teachers are free to teach the deep teachings of the Bible and are not restricted by the fear of offending someone who may not believe what they are being taught. Finally, another option is to not attend Church at all and stay home and “self teach” ourselves the word of God which is completely unscriptural. I know a lot of people would argue this fact with me but I have yet to have anyone prove to me that the Bible teaches that this is the correct way of Church. If this were the correct way then what would be the point of Pastors and Teachers, Deacons and Elders? These Are not man made titles or positions these are all taught in scripture and ordained of God. So Steve I need you to explain to me exactly what you mean by “institutionalized” .

    1. Like it or not different people believe different things and this is really all that a “Denomination” is, it is simply a sign on the side of the street stating what the core beliefs of that congregation or body believes or what their interpretation of doctrine is.

      But I disagree that those differences should separate and divide us. We should be accepting of each other’s differences and have open, healthy discussions about them rather than split off and one person go to one church and another person go to another church each with their tails between their legs sulking and hurt. Denominations only spread the message that “you and I have irreconcilable differences so we shouldn’t associate or worship together”. I don’t find support for that in the Bible.

      Nondenominational bodies are simply, whether they realize it or not, stating that we have no specific doctrine that we teach here and just welcome anybody no matter what they believe to attend.

      I’m afraid that you are misinformed. Non-denominational churches are saying “all are welcome REGARDLESS of disagreements and different interpretations. Lets site down and discuss it openly and freely with acceptance and love.” This is true scriptural community. The Holy Spirit works through love, truth, and freedom. The Holy Spirit leaves us free to come to our own conclusions and that’s how God wins the heart. Paul wrote in Romans 14:5 “Let all be fully convinced in their own minds” not “let us develop denominations and preach at people to believe a certain way.” Denominations say, “I reject you if you don’t believe exactly as I do.” Rejection encourages rebellion and fear. That’s not what God had in mind for his children.

      This is because the word of God is very divisive, it even says this about itself.

      Where does it say this?

      It is nearly impossible to preach the word of God to people who do not interpret scripture the same way as you.

      Really? Why? I don’t think that’s impossible at all.

      …but could you imagine a Pentecostal walk into a Baptist Church or vice versa?

      No I can’t. That’s the problem.

      As you can see these two persons or bodies could never find a common ground on these two matters,

      Where in the Bible does it say that we should only meet with people who we find common ground with?

      so you are left with few options. One, they could say ok let’s just agree that even though we both see things in different ways we will still have fellowship with one another and we will just not preach or teach anything decisive, Or we could do it the way I believe the Bible teaches for us to handle this issue and we could seperate ourselves from each other and attend a Church where the Pastor and Teachers are free to teach and preach as deeply as they want to the doctrines that that denomination or body believes… Finally, another option is to not attend Church at all and stay home and “self teach” ourselves the word of God which is completely unscriptural.

      Why only those three options? What are other, more balanced options?

      not attend Church at all and stay home and “self teach” ourselves the word of God which is completely unscriptural.

      Oh Yeah???

      What about I Corinthians 2:9-13 where we are told that we are to rely on the Holy Spirit’s illumination to gain insights into the applications and meanings of Scripture. I don’t find anything in scripture that points to the idea of allowing a Pastor to illuminate the meanings and applications of scripture, do you? In fact I Thessalonians 5 we are told to 19 Do not stifle the Holy Spirit…21 but test everything that is said.. Also the Bereans in Acts 17:11 11 And the people of Berea were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, and they listened eagerly to Paul’s message. They searched the Scriptures day after day to see if Paul and Silas were teaching the truth.. “Self teaching” is a reliable way to gain insight and understanding about scripture.

      I know a lot of people would argue this fact with me but I have yet to have anyone prove to me that the Bible teaches that this is the correct way of Church.

      Really? Or could it be that you have a closed mind and refuse to see it any other way? Or are you so used to “doing church” a certain way that you simply can’t see it?

      If this were the correct way then what would be the point of Pastors and Teachers, Deacons and Elders? These Are not man made titles or positions these are all taught in scripture and ordained of God.

      I assume you are referring to I Timothy 3? Can you show me where this advocates, or even implies, that we should employ those offices the way we currently do in our “local churches”?

      These are simply titles of leadership among the body of believers, the true church. They in no way support the idea of a “local church”! Ephesians 4:11-13 states: 11 Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers. 12 Their responsibility is to equip God’s people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ. 13 This will continue until we all come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of God’s Son that we will be mature in the Lord, measuring up to the full and complete standard of Christ.

      Notice the phrase “the Body of Christ”? This isn’t a reference to the “local church” but the universal Body of Believers. Even more, no where in scripture can I find anything even remotely suggesting that the “pastor” would be the main player or leader in the “local church” with the role of preaching to a congregation of Believers each Sunday morning, Sunday evening and Wednesday evening. This is simply a misinterpretation of scripture. If it is in the Bible somewhere please show me.

      So Steve I need you to explain to me exactly what you mean by “institutionalized” .

      I think I already answered this above.

      Finally, for the purpose of discussion, it may be beneficial to allow me to reply to one comment before posting another or even moving on to a different topic. It will help keep things organized and going smoothly.

  30. Thanks Bob, I appreciate you making yourself a part of this discussion. I think its very important for people to discuss religion and Bible matters.

    Back to Steve and I’s discussion now. Hey Steve thank you for your print reply to my posting but I do want to let you know that the battery of questions I asked you were not intended for the interview/discussion I emailed you about but that’s ok it’s no problem to include it here as well.

    First Steve I want to make a response to the comment you made about me loading or baitng the questions I asked you. As I explained in my post my questions were not intended to be provoking or baited in any way. I meant what I said I simply was trying to get to know the person I am having a discussion with and what better way then to find out what someones core beliefs are then asking them all sorts of questions whether relevant to the topic or not. I’m simply trying to picture as if you were sitting across the room from me and we were having a discussion. Thats why I asked your age it I wasn’t trying to undermine your knowledge and I apologize if that’s what you thought I was trying to do.

    Steve I want to know what you mean when you say that or idea of Church today is not biblical? Is it because of denominations, the way it’s conducted or something else? A denomination in it’s simplest definition is a given name, not a name given ones self. I go to a Baptist Church because their doctrine (teachings) are most in line with what I belive the Bible teaches. We didn’t start calling ourselves Baptist the Roman Catholic “Church” started calling us Baptist because people in that day were starting to come to the knowledge of the scriptures themselves and realized that the baptizing of infants was in no way scriptural and therefore started rebaptizing or should I say scripturally baptizing people who made a made public profession of faith in Jesus Christ thus our doctrine of believers baptism because an infant does not understand the gospel message so therefore cannot be one a believer. If this is unscriptural I would love for you to show me where.

    Like I said I am a member of a Baptist Church because their teachings are more in line with what the Bible teaches the way I see it. I know Jesus didn’t call any Church by denomination but you cannot argue the fact that there were multiple bodies of Christ throughout the world each one being an independent organization presided over by an ordained man Bishop, Pastor ect. This is we we know today as the local new testament Church. Jesus never intended for his Church to be one gigantic worldwide body. Each individual local body was given certain gifts. “he gave some apostles some teachers some deacons some pastors ect ect. I find no biblical evidence supporting the ecumenical teaching of today that we should all just agree to disagree and everybody just focus on our one commonality Jesus. Jesus called each Church he spoke to in Revelation by a specific zip code if you will, rebuking, praising or encouraging each one by name not one lectur to all of them and let them sort out who’s doing right and who’s doing wrong themselves. Off the top of my head I can’t remember which Church he didn’t rebuke but that doesn’t mean that they were the only true Church that only means that when we read about this today that we should consider that Church a good example for us to follow. We must remember that no matter how bad or good each of these Churches were doing Jesus still called them Church and each one of them by an individual name or city. The ecumenical movement of today teaches the opposite of what the Bible teaches in that we shouldn’t brand ourselves with names and just call ourselves Christians. If this teaching were true then we would still be having individual gatherings in different places but the Biblical teaching of a Pastor would be irrelevant they would have no authority of the Church or congregation because each and every person could in no way be held accountable for their actions because there would be no authority or oversight . On the other hand if we were all just Christians and each individual local gathering had a pastor or overseer then that I would define as being a monster because as I was growing up I was taught that anything having more that one head is a monster. I gotta go for now. Be back later.

    1. All are welcome to join the discussion. It may get a bit confusing but the webmaster will try her best to sort it all out and make it as least confusing as possible.

      I do not know what scriptures you are referencing when you talk about the “local church”. It would be helpful for me to be able to actually read the passages you are referring to. How do you defend the idea of a “local church” using scriptures?
      There are many things about the church in its current state that aren’t Biblical. The first and most obvious thing would be denominationalism. Denominationalism isn’t supported by scripture. If it is, please show me where. The opposite of denominationalism isn’t ecumenism by the way. This is an important distinction to make. We can effectively do away with denominations without falling into ecumenism. This is a good example of the harmful teaching of a church. The IFB I was in was notorious for telling the congregation not to separate from the IFB because you would be in danger of complying with the ecumenical movement. This is simply unfounded paranoia.
      The body of believers (the true church) is divided because of denominationalism. A few years ago I live in a house that had 5 churches all within walking distance. Why is that necessary? It would be perfectly scriptural to have a local body of believers meet together without 5 different churches all within walking distance of each other.

      Of course there needs to be a local body of believers simply for logistical reasons. But, I don’t think that Jesus had this in mind when he was teaching on and talking about the local assembly of believers. Denominational differences cause fighting and division among believers and I think it’s harmful to Christianity in general.

      The second most obvious thing to me is what I like to call “institutionalism”. We have learned how to “do church” a certain way. There are programs and committees and traditions and rituals that aren’t supported in scripture. I don’t know how to say it more clearly. We have grown accustom to doing church a certain way and if it’s not done that way people get angry and upset. I don’t find support for the way we do church in scripture.

      The poor and needy are neglected while the “local church” has a business meeting. The homeless are not welcome on Sunday morning because they aren’t dressed appropriately. The way the church treats homosexuals and non-believers is nothing short of intolerance. It’s just backwards. We should be ministering to the unbelievers and “making disciples” (Matthew 28), not sitting in multimillion dollar buildings on Sunday morning like church going robots because it’s the thing Christians are “supposed” to do. Instead of wasting time over the proper way to do baptism, we should be spreading the gospel.

      I don’t have a problem with Baptism as a public display of one’s conversion. What I do have a problem with is that a group of people were so concerned with the method of doing baptism that they separated themselves and turn their noses up at another group of Christians because they think that they got baptism wrong. How petty.

      I hope that make sense.

    2. I am sure you read the basic “about me” and “about this site”. Steve does give his age.

  31. Hey Kenneth,
    I just noticed that you posted on your brand new section. I’ll try to answer some of these questions listed here.

    I would guess that IFB churches are like other churches in that they are made up of believers and non-believers. I like John 3:16. I think the KJV is a fine translation of the Scripture. I would not separate from another Christian because they were IFB. I think an IFB would be more likely to separate from me because I do not follow their practices.

    To sum up all my answers, I follow Christ and His Word, I mean that is my goal. I determine to accept and believe everything God has said, and to reject every teaching that does not come from Scripture. I want to know Him and love Him and follow Him and to forsake everything that detracts from purity of devotion to Christ.

  32. Here we go again. I am addressing these questions specifically to Steve but any others who share his views are more than welcome to answer as well. I would love to
    hear all of your thoughts.
    Do you believe people who are members of an IFB Church are not Christians? What is your favorite verse of the Bible? If the KJV was the only Bible ever printed in the English language do you think you would be saved today, why or why not? What if we were to me on the street somewhere as perfect strangers and began having a Biblical discussion and found out that we had most things in common and then you found out that I was an IFB, would you break fellowship with me at that point? Why or why not? Who did you vote for in the last presidential election and if you knew that that person was an IFB would you have still voted for that person? I know some of these questions may sound silly and may seem of the topic but like I said im just trying to get to know you better so that maybe I can understand your perspective better. Ok more questions. How do you feel about homosexuality? Should the Bible be allowed in public schools? If you had a million dollars (would you give me some of it) I mean what would you do with it? How would you describe the daily activities of a perfect Christian? Is there anything you think that a Christian should abstain from. Do you think people should attend Church? I’m talking about any Church not IFB. Well I think that these are all perfectly fair questions so far and I hope that you agree. I’m going to pause once again and maybe continue on later in the mean time I hope you agree to answer these questions.

    1. Do you believe people who are members of an IFB Church are not Christians?

      No I don’t believe that. I don’t make judgment calls on whether someone is a Christian or not no matter what they do or where they go to church. That’s between them and God.

      What is your favorite verse of the Bible?

      I have two… Colossians 1:22 and Colossians 2:8

      If the KJV was the only Bible ever printed in the English language do you think you would be saved today, why or why not?

      Yes, because there wouldn’t be a Bible version debate. It would be a moot issue.

      What if we were to me on the street somewhere as perfect strangers and began having a Biblical discussion and found out that we had most things in common and then you found out that I was an IFB, would you break fellowship with me at that point? Why or why not?

      No, I have many friends and colleagues who are IFB. I don’t reject people only the teachings of the IFB.

      Who did you vote for in the last presidential election and if you knew that that person was an IFB would you have still voted for that person?

      I voted for McCain/Palin and yes I would have still voted for them if they were an IFB, however, the fact that they were an IFB would have no bearing on my decision making process. I simply voted for the lesser of two evils.

      I don’t see the relevance here. I hate politics, but I can’t imagine allowing someone’s religious preference persuading my decision for who I would vote for. I generally vote for the president with the most interest in making provisions for citizen control rather than government control (e.g., healthcare). In this day and age it usually comes down to the lesser of two evils.

      I know some of these questions may sound silly and may seem of the topic but like I said im just trying to get to know you better so that maybe I can understand your perspective better.

      It seems to me that you are trying to bait me for some reason. Just a gut feeling. I’m not sure what they have to do with the IFB either.

      How do you feel about homosexuality?

      Another loaded yet vague question. Care to be more specific?

      Should the Bible be allowed in public schools?

      Yes, but I think this is more of a political issue than a religious one.

      If you had a million dollars (would you give me some of it) I mean what would you do with it?

      No I probably wouldn’t give you any of it. I would protect and invest it to ensure that it lasted and grew. I would provide for my family and enjoy financial independence. I would invest in hobbies and personal interests – perhaps start a charity for those affected by spiritual abuse.

      How would you describe the daily activities of a perfect Christian?

      There is no such thing as a perfect Christian but if there were a perfect Christian he/she would be engaging in similar ministries/activities as Jesus did.

      Do you think people should attend Church? I’m talking about any Church not IFB.

      No, at least not while it is in its current form. If “church” were more like the way it’s supposed to be then yes, most definitely they should attend.

      Well I think that these are all perfectly fair questions so far and I hope that you agree.

      Fair but I don’t see the relevance in some of them. I think you misunderstand me and what I’m about and I don’t know how these questions help resolve that, but whatever. I hope my answers help.

  33. Hi it’s me again. I will now continue my questions. Do you believe that Jesus was the last prophet or do you believe that God is still making new revelations to mankind today? What’s your stance on female leadership within the Church? You mentioned in your writings that the KJV is full or errors please share some with memandmbe as detailed as possible if you would. Are there any other Churhes (denominations) or religious organizations other than the IFB that you feel are apostate or cultish in practice? As many people have asked you about as why you make all of your statements toward the IFB and why you make these statements about the IFB across the board even though the majority of people who have made post here claiming that these accusations are not
    true in theirm home Church why do you feel the need to combine all IFB’s into the same category instead of just telling us about the Churches you claim all of this abuse was administered towards you? It doesn’t seem fair to me to for you to be including my Church and many other peoples Churches in your accusations when none of us know you from Adam. From our perspective we are standing in front of a firing squad and have know idea what we did to you. I don’t mean for this to be a provoking question but do you get personal enjoyment from attacking the IFB on this site if so why and if not, again why incorporate all IFB Churches in your accusations? You mentioned that this site it to fight against spiritual abuse in general no matter what Church or denominatiom dishes it out but I have yet to see you make any accusations towards any other group other than IFB why is that, do you not find any heresy, false doctrine or fallibties in any other organization but the IFB? (if you have mentioned any I must have missed it and do appologize). pausing for now TBC

    1. Do you believe that Jesus was the last prophet or do you believe that God is still making new revelations to mankind today?

      I’m not sure I understand what you mean by “new revelations”. Care to expound?

      What’s your stance on female leadership within the Church?

      I don’t take a stance on this issue – yet. The way we do church today in our society isn’t biblical so I guess it would depend on how you define “leadership within the church”. You will have to be more specific.

      You mentioned in your writings that the KJV is full or errors please share some with memandmbe as detailed as possible if you would.

      There is a lot of information about the KJV errors on this site and other sites. I will refer you to them for more information. There is a bibliography at the end of my KJV Onlyism post with information about KJV errors as well.

      Are there any other Churhes (denominations) or religious organizations other than the IFB that you feel are apostate or cultish in practice?

      Yes

      As many people have asked you about as why you make all of your statements toward the IFB and why you make these statements about the IFB across the board even though the majority of people who have made post here claiming that these accusations are not true in theirm home Church why do you feel the need to combine all IFB’s into the same category instead of just telling us about the Churches you claim all of this abuse was administered towards you?

      It’s my goal to share my experiences. It’s up to the reader to determine if what I write applies to his/her unique situation. I’ve stated very clearly why I don’t name the churches I’ve experienced.

      Ultimately, though, I think that most people are blind to the abuse because they are “institutionalized” and are unable/unwilling to see that the information I write about applies to their church. People have become so concerned about defending a way of doing church that they have lost sight of the truth.

      I’m not the one who is “combining all IFB’s into the same category”. Each IFB church does that effectively itself when they take on the label IFB and endorse the teachings of that particular denomination.

      It doesn’t seem fair to me to for you to be including my Church and many other peoples Churches in your accusations when none of us know you from Adam. From our perspective we are standing in front of a firing squad and have know idea what we did to you.

      I’m not sure why you are taking this personally. My site is about the IFB not Kenneth Fuquay. If you are taking it personally that’s your issue not mine. I can’t help it if you take it personally.

      If a particular church identifies itself as IFB then they are taking on the identity of and associating with all that represents the IFB, good AND bad. You can’t say “I’m IFB but I only associate with the good things about it”. You have to be willing to associate with the bad stuff as well.

      I don’t mean for this to be a provoking question but do you get personal enjoyment from attacking the IFB on this site if so why and if not, again why incorporate all IFB Churches in your accusations?

      I’m not attacking the IFB, but yes I do enjoy doing this. This also provides a certain amount of education for me. As I write about what was wrong and abusive about the IFB I learn about the truth. This is essentially one big bible study for me.

      I’ve already addressed the question about “incorporating all IFB churches”.

      You mentioned that this site it to fight against spiritual abuse in general no matter what Church or denominatiom dishes it out but I have yet to see you make any accusations towards any other group other than IFB why is that, do you not find any heresy, false doctrine or fallibties in any other organization but the IFB? (if you have mentioned any I must have missed it and do appologize).

      Yes, ultimately I’m speaking out against spiritual abuse. I write about the IFB simply because that’s where my experiences are. I’m staying within the niche (for lack of a better term) because that’s my interest and experience. Perhaps someday I will write about other churches, groups, denominations, organizations, etc. but right now I’m only interested in and prepared for writing about the IFB.

  34. Ok Steve and Greg like I mentioned before I’m really not one for arguing but it’s a nice spring afternoon and I’m all relaxed sitting on mymfront porch enjoying the afternoon breeze with nothing better to do so why don’t we have us a little discussion. First of all Steve and Greg I would like to offer the both of you an apology if I was out of line in anyway but you must realize that most of the comments on this site are most definently out of line from my viewpoint. Steve, repeatedly you accuse people of making false accusations about you and say nobody ever bothers to get to know you. Well, here In am and I’m going to ask you some questions in order to get to know you. If you like you may also ask me anything you would like to know about me and my beliefs.

    First I would like to ask you how old you are. Next if you don’t mind I would like for you to tell me what exactly your stance is on the following topics. (If you have already wrote about any of these topics please don’t tell me to look it up in your writings I have read the majority of them already but I don’t have a super memory and havnt memorized every page) First what do you believe must happen in order for a person to be saved? What do you believe about baptism? Can a person lose their salvation? When and how often if ever should we partake of the Lords supper? What is your stance on the trinity (Godhead)? Do you believe that Jesus is God or just the Son of God or none of the above? I think you mentioned already that you are not an institutionalized Christian but if you were what denomination do you think your beliefs are most in line with. Why did you wait so long after becoming an adult to leave the IFB if you were so unhappy there? I’m going to pause there and go ahead and post this just in case it doesn’t send and have to retype it all.

    1. I’m really not one for arguing

      Somehow I seriously doubt that. At any rate I appreciate your desire to get to know me and ask questions rather than jump to conclusions.

      Steve, repeatedly you accuse people of making false accusations about you and say nobody ever bothers to get to know you. Well, here In am and I’m going to ask you some questions in order to get to know you. If you like you may also ask me anything you would like to know about me and my beliefs.

      That was said in the context of my discussion with Arv Edgeworth. I don’t repeatedly accuse people of that. I accused Arv of that because that’s what he was doing. I appreciate your willingness to ask questions.

      First I would like to ask you how old you are.

      This is irrelevant. I don’t disclosing my age for several reasons.

      Next if you don’t mind I would like for you to tell me what exactly your stance is on the following topics. (If you have already wrote about any of these topics please don’t tell me to look it up in your writings I have read the majority of them already but I don’t have a super memory and havnt memorized every page) First what do you believe must happen in order for a person to be saved? What do you believe about baptism? Can a person lose their salvation? When and how often if ever should we partake of the Lords supper? What is your stance on the trinity (Godhead)? Do you believe that Jesus is God or just the Son of God or none of the above?

      These topics are not exactly pertinent to the efforts of the site at this time. I may be writing about some of them in the future but my focus is on other topics currently. I don’t have time right now to address them. As the site evolves and I add more information, those topics may be included. You are welcome to check back to find answers to those questions if you wish – sorry.

      I think you mentioned already that you are not an institutionalized Christian but if you were what denomination do you think your beliefs are most in line with.

      I don’t know, nor do I care. Denominations aren’t biblical.

      Why did you wait so long after becoming an adult to leave the IFB if you were so unhappy there?

      I didn’t wait. I got out as soon as I found out the truth. But that’s the problem with spiritual abuse – especially among the IFB. It’s manipulative and people aren’t able to see it right away. The IFB deceives people into thinking that their way is the ONLY way and are discouraged (to put it mildly) from leaving. Guilt and manipulation kept me there until about age 25. There are many comments here from others with similar experiences. I would encourage you to read them.

      I’m going to pause there and go ahead and post this just in case it doesn’t send and have to retype it all.

      Good idea. I recommend that you use a word processor to type your thoughts. Save them on your computer and later you can copy and paste. That way you won’t lose anything or have to re-type it if there is a technological glitch (which WordPress is notorious for).

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